CNC with my sub/slave but with the clear visual of being completely destroyed and used.

Thanks for putting my thoughts into words Donny. "Lost love has brought me to my knees a couple of times, changed the core of the man I am and caused me to over time choose different directions and paths."
The bad part is that I agree with Leisa that most people experience love when they are older Read more… and wiser. Unfortunately, I did at a younger age. I think I wouldn't mind being a part of the masses and waiting.

Thebian I appreciate the cordial tone and accept that we are not special.
I agree that telling people who they are is usually fraught with problems. However, let us look at this from a different angle. We talk a lot about submissives who are leaders in the real world such as Leisa but do you think Read more… all these subs are Leisa's? How many subs can actually kick their Dom's ass? Some subs are submissive 24/7 period. At home and at work and in life. This is who they are, but no one would say yes that's just her personality and leave her. We think that added dominance would do far better and would encourage this.
I think I agree on most things you say here bud. I think everyone feels like I am saying I am going to say to hell with my daughter if she becomes a sub or that she could never turn to me to talk. Lets set the record straight. She should come to me with everything. In the same way I can cordially disagree and discourage here. I can cordially disagree and discourage my daughter. Doesn't mean anything else. I am entitled to do that.
I love the story of your Dad because everyone keeps talking that I think subs are not strong in the real world. I think they are strong. Not all of them are, which sometimes I think everyone is forgetting. Not every sub is this riveting powerhouse of strength. Also, strength in the gym does not equate to strength as a parent. Strength as a parent does not equate to strength as a boss. People miss that. You can be strong in some things and be weak in your relationship and that is the whole point of BDSM. Doms want that weakness and submission and subs want the opposite. I just accept that for what it is and know I like it. There is nothing empowering about it. This is like saying that in vanilla society kissing a woman's leg or eating her out is empowering. No it isn't. It's simply a human expression of sex and relationship. That is good enough for me. 🤷‍♂️

Leisa, you have made some salient points. I think some clarification would help. I do not believe that women are the weaker sex. If I did, then how would I want my daughter to be Dominant? I do not believe this. What I think is that society teaches women to adopt submissive roles and seek Dominant Read more… men. It's in every movie. You see it in vanilla relationships and you sure as hell see it in BDSM. I am sure your Dom is not submissive. I just read your Dom's post by the way. You two seem very nice. Anyhow, the majority of subs in BDSM are women. That is a statistical fact and not coincidental. In fact, the trend is growing because of BDSMs gaining popularity.
In some way this has changed but for the most part it is still Dominant men and submissive women. I understand that Pavlov's theory is based primarily on biological stimuli and would not be applied to social conditioning exactly. I was just saying that in the same way that Dogs can be conditioned, so too can the individual be conditioned by society. This is what I meant to say. This is what explains an entire country such as Germany believing in the Third Reich. Rhetoric, propaganda and ultimately, social conditioning. This is also what explains the phenomena of Highly successful women particularly seeking out Dominant men in their private lives be it in BDSM or vanilla. You don't see highly successful men seeking out dominant women on any sweeping scale. Yes it happens but it is not the norm. The opposite is true.
Such hardline definitions of human behavior explaining Dominance and submission by ascribing them to naturalistic tendencies eventually start breaking down upon closer inspection and the lack of scientific support.
1. If Dominance and submission were natural tendencies then you wouldn't be Dominant in the real world but submissive only in your private life.
2. Comparing, Dominance and submission to LGBQT is a false analogy. There is genuine scientific support that proves these things are naturally developed. No science has shown the biological origin of Submission and Dominance in the brain.
3. Dominance and submission seem to be based on certain traits in the animal kingdom such as physical strength, aggression or combat skills. Our concept of Dominance is more psychological. For example, you could whoop your Doms ass. Based on Biology, you would be the Dominant one but you're not.
All of this points to a more fluid concept of being Dominant or submissive and what causes it. This is entirely different from what feels natural and good to you, social conditioning is one of the explaining factors.
So to answer your question. No. If my child was LGBTQ I cannot change nature but in Dominance and submission I can change nurture.
The difference between many here and myself is that I accept the influence society has had upon me and how it influences me. I do not try sugarcoating or making politically correct statements. I call a thing what it is and own up to it. Most women are conditioned to be submissive and most men are conditioned to be Dominant. This has contributed to who I am and have become and that's ok.
Another point I wanted to make clear was that weakness does not equate to inferiority. I used as an example, men who were physically stronger than I am or more than many Doms here, doesn't lead to the conclusion that we are inferior. Just physically weaker and that is a fact. No need to pretend. Some men have more power than others in society but it doesn't mean the most powerful is superior to the one with less. So I don't subscribe to that notion.
Leisa, I am green but the explanations can only go so far. There is always an underlying notion beneath something. I think i as well as most people here have an underlying philosophy. I think we just don't wish to call it what it is. For example, how many vanilla people would not be receptive to me saying that their relationships are based on power dynamics as well. There has to be someone more dominant in any relationship, or sometimes they switch and delegate duties. Power, Dominance and submission is at the core of all human relations. Denying it is only hiding from our brutal reality.

Phoenyx I found this very insightful. Perhaps, you are correct. I am not so against the idea of my daughter trying to submit to A Dom who sees her as his light in the dark sky. Shit, if he would do anything for her, then her gratitude isn't exactly unfounded. I just do not think that light in the Read more… dark sky is usually the prerequisite for assuming a Dom. In fact, there may be no love at all from the Dom. We all know this.
Phoenyx, I know you aren't a lifer. However, people are acting that becoming a slave/sub to a Master/24/7 Dom is not a real life changing event and we can pretend all we want that it isn't. Some Doms make sure their subs eat healthy, exercise, learn a new instrument, go to school, practice anxiety control etc. This is amazing but who here believes that A Dom or Master must do these things as a Prerequisite or be even remotely interested in such development? Love isn't even a prerequisite. After 10 years of service of displaying your submission, cleaning your Dom's house, kissing his/her feet being a fucktoy on request. I mean what have you gained? People keep talking about all they have learned and gained just by means of BDSM. What have you learned? How far your body can go? You could and probably should do that in the gym or join the military or try climbing a mountain, but still to what end? See that communication, honesty and boundaries are important? Reading and self development or parental influence could/should teach you that depending on your view. In fact you should know this before you dive into any relationship. Period. Affection and feelings of ownership? I understand this one. Your Dom gives you aftercare, and you painstakingly follow the rules and be a good slave. However, these things you have done have real material and legitimate benefit/advantage to your Master. He may put his feet up and study and go on to become a large business owner. This is a real benefit. Not to say there aren't successful subs. Many, if not most are. However, not every sub is successful and not every Master is trying to give that real life development but honestly is that a prerequisite now to be successful or have your life together to be a sub. BDSM would not be as inclusive as we claim then. In the cases of such subs/slaves who are not blessed with steady jobs and great income they have gained nothing but feelings of value and affection. There is nothing back. Again we can play games but the reality exists and people shouldn't turn a blind eye to the multiple realities of our life and human nature in general.

Mz_Whiplash I think life can truly be an interesting experience. I think my discussion ended up veering off towards deeper questions about the human experience. Wasn't my intent but it happened. I was just asking what others thought and I responded and it sort of took a dive into some unknown Read more… territory.

little_red_92 I am not a believer in dogma or tradition and I am very apt to call something as I see it. You want to reference my previous post/newness as a means by which to dismiss my arguments based on your emotional responses. Despite, even to this point me never having disrespected or Read more… dismissed you. Unfortunately, there is fallacy in logic called ad hominem attacks. This is where, you bypass the points/position of someone who you disagree with and seek to attack their personality and in so doing feel like you addressed their point.
But yes please I encourage not only you but everyone else to reread my previous post. All you see is a Dom seeking out the appropriate thing to do for his sub based on the principles I have learned here and in the BDSM community as a whole. You see my desire for safe words, safety, respect. I merely disagree on a philosophical level about what we are truly doing. What is scary about someone who believes in consent, safety and limits? In fact, what is scary about someone who believes that these things should be even more emphasized? You are upset because of my philosophical points. I have no desire to abuse or do anything outside the scope of a gentlemanly Dom, so if you now wish to address my actual points instead of attacking my character, then I think we might have a true discussion or exchange of ideas. I am truly open and desirous of the latter.

I really like your points TJ_Pup
People keep asking me if I do not value my sub and if I think it is possible. I never stated that. I said it goes against teaching her that she is valuable REGARDLESS OF WHAT OTHERS THINK. I am not saying I do not value subs or that they are not valuable. I value Read more… them and think they are valuable. I want to teach my daughter a philosophy that I teach myself. Value has no correlation or attachment to another individual. I don't seek to be valued. I do not think you should ever derive true value from anyone. True value comes from within. Neither by my sub, nor by anyone at all. I have no such void to fill. I came into the world alone and might very well leave alone. I have strong feelings for my sub. I really do love her. My mind is filled with thoughts of how to make her better and make her happy. I understand her need to feel valued and try my hardest to fill that need. As for myself. I see her and love her just out of my own raw desire for her. Does her valuing of me make me feel good? Yes, but I could live alone and be contempt. Luckily, I see her and having her as mine is far more preferable, so I take the sweeter route. I don't need her but you can bet I want her and crave her in every way. Self contentment is a hard psychological concept to grasp but it is solemn and humbling. Knowing your place in this world makes you invincible and unbreakable, yet humble. You are not tied to anyone and your value can never be assaulted. Your actions become purely out of desire and admiration, not a need to feel valued. I live with the realities of whether my child may or may not get abused, whether their spirit falls to shambles in the event they invest in some fleeting emotion or relationship. I do not live expecting the best. In fact, I expect the worst and merely hope for the best. I am never caught off guard or at least never dealt a blow that knocks me completely to the ground maybe a shock back and some disorientation but I remain level and get back in the game. This is my goal as a father; to teach my girl to be that and nothing less. There should be no need of a Dom/vanilla partner (Shocking, I know). No need for feelings of value from others. They should learn to appreciate and love others and definitely to reciprocate love but never truly need another. No need to feel like you must please anyone, Dom or sub. Many people speak about filling a void. I am sorry but relationships, while sometimes do fill voids leaves you vulnerable and exposed and you are at their mercy. And we know this is true in BDSM, that is why we focus on never pushing limits and giving aftercare because WE ALL KNOW this could really fuck someone in the head. WE KNOW, so pretending would be the same hypocrisy you see in the vanilla society. Someone is going to say "well that's what subs like and that shows strength" well are you now implying that Doms do not have this type of strength? Why do they see no need to display it? In fact, they live entire lives of Domination (I plan to live an entire life of Domination) and never once need to display it and their growth is fine? A common explanation and strangely, it usually only casts women in this explanation is that a sub has a stressful job(s)/life and wish to become free from the cares of the world and have a cathartic experience. So, all the Male Doms out there with high level/stress jobs don't need to feel free too and have a cathartic experience? I accept our lifestyle for what it is. I don't need all the politically correct sugarcoating. However, there should be self contentment for everyone. I get it, that isn't where all of us are and some people need a Dom/sub but "Worthless slut" shouldn't have an effective feel to her one bit. Negative or positive. She couldn't care less what you thought. Doesn't mean she may not fall but that is what I want. Ultimately, she can do as she wishes. Yes, I agree, I'd rather her be honest with me and tell me she wishes for this rather than hide but a sub is not my first choice at all. Shit, she can be anything, literally the worst possible thing, a murderer or whatever. These things too I am prepared for. I hope and work towards the best but I expect anything.

Wow. Time out bud. I never said sadism is a dangerous mentality. S &M is what is primarily associated with physical punishment. We are all hyperaware about this aspect because one can very easily push pass consent, accidentally and truly hurt someone physically or emotionally. So we give it a Read more… lot of attention. That's why I mentioned Sadism and should have clarified. But the other full blown dangerous aspects, like emotional and mental manipulation/real abuse are also hard NOs for me and as I have learned here, is not real BDSM.
Disagreement is not dismissal. I am not treating you as a sub. That would be poor etiquette and in poor taste as I have learned.

I don't really think of myself in that way at all. As sitting on a high horse. And not sitting on a donkey doesn't mean anything either.
I am here to learn but in learning, must I always agree with every conventional notion? Literally the only thing I said was that I wouldn't want my daughter to Read more… be a sub. That's it. From that, i am hearing so many far off deductions that just do not represent me at all or in fact anything I have already learned from all of you guys already.
I do think subs are strong. You must be strong willed to not tear apart under punishments and following orders etc. Highly disciplined person. That takes some kind of internal strength to withstand this type of treatment. I learned this mostly from everyone here.
No one is comparing levels of abuse in BDSM to vanilla society. People keep bringing this up. It's not exactly relevant. I would not teach my daughter to easily open up in a vanilla relationship either. I think strong signs of respect, desire and love must first be seen prior to opening up.
BeardedSi, how can I think that the Dom's role is to tear anyone down? I know at least from what I have read here and what others have encouraged me to do is to be someone who lifts their sub up. I subscribe to what you have said as well. The betterment of your sub is and should be one of our top priorities.
So to answer your question. My perception of the Dom role is literally not very different from yours. It's probably identical. Protect, care, love (if you even love your sub) and fulfill your subs goals and desires in a safe, sane and consensual way.
Yup I immersed myself in all that you guys taught me.🤷‍♂️ I'm just saying my daughter doing this would be a no for me. That's it.

I don't view them as lesser at all. I wouldn't care for my sub and want the best for her if I viewed her as less. Dangerous mentality isn't my thing honestly. I'm not a big sadist. I'm more protective and nurturing than Sadistic. Contrary to what you think, I feel that given the nature of what we Read more… are doing, that subs should be even more careful and that Doms/Master should have to show more displays of committment before a sub gives herself that way. Not everyone may have excellent relationships/Doms like some of us here. And yes I am learning more, reading more and here I am talking more. Experience surely matters but it also makes a good case for authoritarianism but solid points based on logic and actual assessment can never be ignored. In the words of Aristotle "Follow the argument where it leads" Not follow the arguer where he goes. That is a flaw in logic.

Donny. You are such a wise guy. I agree you must make them make their mistakes and yes I'd rather my daughter come to.me than just dive into BDSM. However, I still wouldn't promote it or want her to be a sub. Would be perfectly fine if she was a Mistress.

Never said it was. I was merely saying hypocrisy isn't always necessarily bad.