Pronouns...should they matter?

[Zo****]

Should pronouns really matter for nonbinary, trans, genderfluid types?

As one who presents as one of the above, I find the whole pronoun thing a curiosity. For some its of primary inportance, but not for me. For most of us, these internal feelings are not externally obvious. But more importantly, should I need external validation for my internal feelings? And if I need YOU to validate my feelings of gender, do I also need all my other internal feelings validated by external sources? External validation of internal feelings is a slippery slope.

As a trans/cd/nonbinary/genderfluid/androgenous person born a biological male, I love both sides of my gender equation. I am at peace with the full gender spectrum of my being. Would I like to be more feminine in my appearance? Certainly, but, I think most people have some sort of body dysphoria. They have something they would like to change to be more attractive in their minds. And as much as I enjoy being recognized as feminine when presenting, I do not expect it. Expectation, says the Buddha, is the cause of all disappointment.

I personally do not subscribe to the new genders of the 21st century. The last I heard New York recognizes 18 different genders. Without wearing a badge to inform others which of these obscure pronouns you prefer, how can one know? And is it truly neccessary? Do not two genders suffice to cover the spectrum of gender expression?

Gender, unlike biological sex, is a metaphysical phenomenon. Thoughts feelings are immaterial fleeting phenomena. While there is certainly a mind body connection, it isn't always obvious how it is connected. Everything in this universe is polarized. We know one state/phenomena by its polar opposite. We know hot by comparing it to cold and we have many words to describe various temperatures in between these extremes. While life is persistant in this universe, it tends to favor the area of the spectrum closest to the equicenter of the thermal spectrum. In other words, life prospers not at the extremes, but where there is overlap.

Gender is much the same. Though historically it has suffered because the extremes of gender were promoted as the preferred, particularly in Euro/western culture.

Gender much like sexuality is influenced by hormones. Regardless of where you are on the gender spectrum you are also on a hormonal spectrum. Everyone has a combination of both the masculine and feminine hormones. We could argue the extreme polarized male is 100% masculine and 0% feminine, while the polarized females is 100% feminine and 0% masculine. These extremist "ideals" are nonexistent mathematical abstractions and are not ideal at all. No one living is representative of these extremes for life itself is dependent upon both these energies being present. At the equicenter of the hormone spectrum you find the hermaphrodite. This individual due to the neutralized state of its gender/hormones/sexuality cannot reproduce and therefore lacks the potential for life.

All energy potential is the product of charge differential. Life is energized matter. So, no matter what you do, you cannot rid yourself of either side of the gender equation. We are all both male and female, and regardless of how you choose to present. Hating the gender of your birth sex is a sure fire path to self loathing and suicidal ideation. This I know through personal experience. It is pointless and unnecessary.

Accept yourself fully and completely. Care not the opinions of strangers. If you are truly comfortable with your gender you should not need the external validation of others. Respect and acceptance certainly, but accept yourself first and be respectful of others. Just because they don't see you as you do, don't let it ruin your day. Respect their perception(a feeling) regardless, barring any hate or ***. Love both your masculine and feminine self.

Androgenously yours
Zoe

[ma****]

This is a bit of a loaded question. However, the simple answer is yes they matter. It's acknowledgement of a person's identity. What could be more important than acceptance. It follows equity.

[Se****]

Very thought provoking and interesting, thank you. I like and appreciate where your viewpoint is coming from. As a person who looks for external validation from others (not regarding gender or sexuality) I can see how these thoughts and ideas are transferable to me on a personal level.

[Da****]

Identity is mostly a state of mind, gender and sexuality are not.

[TheDadfromAladdin]

30 minutes ago, maninblueuniform said:

This is a bit of a loaded question. However, the simple answer is yes they matter. It's acknowledgement of a person's identity. What could be more important than acceptance. It follows equity.

Loaded? No. Buddy you're just misguided as the beta you choose to be.
You could call me any pronoun you want. Should it matter to me if you get them wrong? NO. Why SHOULD it matter? I KNOW what I am and it'll never offend me in the slghtest.

People forget that there are tons of pronouns and all a pronoun really is, is a vague noun. You can use someones name in place of any pronoun and it works.

They/them is used to describe both 1 person or multiple people and it's always defined in the beginning.


what's more important than acceptance? Would you like me to tell you what's more important?

[Lo****]

I’m sorry and this is probably gonna sound like a total asshole response but it’s pretty simple if you were born with a prostate, you are a man or a he or a him….. if you were not born with a prostate, then you are a woman or a she or a her…..

We could dance around that what I identify with all day but at what point do we stop? People are gonna start identifying as fruits or vegetables or inanimate objects at what point do we say enough is enough? There’s no reason that New York needs to have 18 different variations of identity And there’s also no reason why I have to oblige you by calling you some random pronoun that didn’t exist 10 minutes ago

As long as we keep placating, this, we are just gonna make it worse and worse and worse

Now don’t get me wrong heterosexual homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, lesbian gay queer. I’m OK with all of that. It’s just when we start with all of the other stuff is when it just gets a little bit out of hand.

[Je****]

They matter to the person who thinks it matters to better communicate to the world who they are. It all comes down to communication and understanding. Nothing should ever be mandatory meaning use them if it helps you describe who you are and want to be perceived by others. Don’t expect everyone to use them when they address you with the exception of the most significant people who are the closed to you and even there show grace if others have problems conforming to your requests.

[1-****]

It matters to those who want it to. Take religion for example. There’s loads of religions and there are also those who don’t believe in a god. We can aknowledge that you believe in a god and can support that. But I will not buy into it and believe it because that’s my believes.
Same with gender. I believe you are a man or women. But you can feel like the other gender and if you want I will address you as them. However I don’t believe anything outside of this, I don’t believe in anything further like non binary, they/them, and whatever else there is. And that’s no disrespect to yours or anyone else’s beliefs. That’s just my own personal belief that it doesn’t exist. For me to respect you and to address you correctly as I would, I expect you to respect back that I don’t believe otherwise

[kc****]

Of course they matter. This is a very loaded post imo

[De****]

If someone asks you to use a certain pronoun for them, yes it matters. Simple. Respect others wishes, especially when those wishes in no way harm or hurt you.
.
To ask if something “should” matter is a bit ridiculous. You can’t ever tell people what they should feel nor invalidate the feelings of others. If they care about something, they do.

[Pi****]

It matters. Like I see your name is Zoe and that's your preferred name, but I'm going to call you Sam because that's why I feel like calling you. That's just wrong. (Not that I would, just an example)

[Zo****]

It seems to me, you missed the point.

[da****]

It is a extremely loaded question because no two people in the trans community will agree on this whole pro-noun thing I definitely do not agree with the whole they them ze zer crap because what is a ze zir zer and according to the English language they them is plural meaning more than one and the last time I checked everyone is binary because our DNA can be coded with 1’ and 0’s alittle computer humor for you lol I grew up around the older trans community and a lot of them do not like what they see going on right now being trans or whatever has become a political movement it feels like

[Deleted Member]

Yes, pronouns are important. They may not be important for you personally, and that is valid. But recognizing others need for external validation is also important.

Personally, i feel most genuine as non-binary. Enbys themselves have a full spectrum of gender identity and gender expression. And this is an important difference as well. Gender identity and gender expression are different, and how they align is completely personal. I identify as non binary because i feel that i exist beyond just one end of the polar binaries. I feel both masculinity and femininity. My expression of gender fluctuates and this is valid.

We also need to consider that validation fights binary sterotyping. Yes, all people feel dysmorphia regarding their bodies. However dysphoria is specific to gender identity and presentation when it comes to current syntax. I have no idea what all the gender identities might be. But if someone tells me, i will do my best to respect and believe this person, because everyone deserves to be called by what makes them feel authentically them.

Regarding expectations i believe it is fair to accept that the general population may misgender you. But it is valid to expect people you have shared your pronouns with to attempt to respect and use them.

I believe its also good practice to use gender neutral terms until you know how someone identifies. When interacting with strangers, for example, as someone in a service job, it is best to remain neutral and just say "have a nice day" or "i can help the next person" rather than assuming mister or ma'am. The more we practice this, the sooner it will become the norm. Being regarded neutrally is generally less dysphoric than being labeled one identity or another.

Thank you OP, for opening the discussion!

[Be****]

Pronouns are out of control. I’m sorry but what some people think they are is absolutely ridiculous and I won’t go along with it.

[Da****]

If you want a pro-noun, great, your choice, yet anything in this lifestyle the discussion needs to happen to make clear how you want to be Acknowledged

[an****]

It should be accepted however it is sometimes hard to identify people if you're not accustomed to it people who have identifiers outside of him and her shouldn't get mad or upset if someone makes an honest mistake and if it takes them awhile it's okay , learning is love , but getting upset when people won't/unaware of pronouns is also not cool , some older folks usually dont even care

[do****]

No, I like very much what you’re saying about needing other people to validate you. You shouldn’t. If you need other peoples validation, then you’re not a whole person and that’s something that only you can do to yourself.

[nu****]

Beautifully said. I think you should speak this in a video and post it every where. YouTube ,tiktok, especially tiktok to get conversations going. Then you can reply to the comments .

[LT****]

“Should pronouns really matter for nonbinary, trans, genderfluid types?”

Nonbinary and genderfluid people are trans, so this question is confusing in that regard.

I’m a masculine presenting agender nonbinary AMAB person and use they/them as it fits who I am and helps provide visibility so I don’t simply pass.  I don’t get bent out of shape if someone uses the wrong pronouns.  However, my visibility and acceptance is important to me.  If a person is unwilling to use my pronouns, it tells me they are unsafe in some manner, and/or don’t matter in my life.  So the closer the relationship, the more problematic pronoun accuracy becomes.

Honestly though, using someone’s preferred pronouns isn’t harmful to anyone, and shows kindness and acceptance to the person.  Why is showing kindness and acceptance such a big issue?

[wh****]

I remember when I was in high school in the 70's, having a fake ID and going to gay night clubs and dance clubs.... The word we used at that time was GAY and Bi- sexual, Lesbian.... When I was approached a guy or woman would ask, are you gay or bi... That was all that was said at that time... I don't know how the main stream media and politicians who know nothing decided to change the world and start pronouns....

[bl****]

What does it matter..... ppl do what they want anyway and don't give a shit. This younger generation call me bro and dude, and the older gen call me bitch or hoe. No matter what ppl will call you how they see not what you want.

[Ba****]

Of course, pronouns matter. And no, "the two" genders do not cover it all.

[Yo****]

I personally don't care what's used for Me, but that could be an abnormal thought process, I'd not take Me as a Solid Voice for the Overall. But I did figure I'd throw my coin into the conversation just so people have more stats to compare.

[Vi****]

My primary partner prefers they or them as they are gender fluid, as long as you TRY they're ok with a she or her on occasion, but majority of the time they prefer proper pronouns.