Grace Millane

[Deleted Member]

Last week a few people in this community felt upset about the *** of a female tv celebrity. Today, or yesterday, as happened in New Zealand, a news report, on the sentencing of an unnamed sociophile, hit the headlines. The *** of Grace Millane is about to raise questions on consensual "rough sex". Although many within the bdsm community don't involve sex as part of their play, the issue of adrenalin pumped momentary choking, because the female partner has suggested that she receives a higher climax sensation, needs to be seriously considered. Possibly trying to be serious at a point of high tension, might appear difficult. But those who use such a technique, should be extra aware of how close they are of terminating someone's life. I appreciate that there are magazine articles in our own "library" on being safe with this part of play. The upshot of the criminal case though, is that there are likely to be legal ramifications against anyone, in any future defence saying that rough sex was consented to.

On a further note, I found a disturbing profile written by a "young female" today, within which was written that they have no limits ( I know, they don't know what they mean) and that they would do anything for a dom and love "a dominant other to use and *** me for their needs". Suffice it to say, I wrote to the profiler and pointed out the news story. I would hope that the mature members of this community, would consider reminding others who display frivolous language, just how serious we should all take all aspects of our play.

I apologise for the length of this post, but feel it's of extreme importance to us all.

[Vandalslut]

10 hours ago, Leatherfox2010 said:

'...they have no limits...and that they would do anything for a dom and love "a dominant other to use and *** me for their needs"... I would hope that the mature members of this community, would consider reminding others who display frivolous language, just how serious we should all take all aspects of our play.

Well said, Leatherfox2010.  Thank you! Apart from this recent terrible tragedy, there's been a disturbing amount of posts and profiles from new and young members in this site claiming 'no limits, up for anything!' and these are the ones that become the victims of out-and-out, full-on sadists; the sort whose 'need to ***' include fin-dom, opening the way for the 'up for anything' submissive to end up penniless on the streets; or the Dom/me may 'need to ***' them by making the sub the nightly  'guest of honour'  at vicious gang-bangs where 'anything goes - my sub has no limits.' Most of the 'up for anything' subs I've seen in here are very young, and probably have no clear idea of what 'no limits' really means outside of their fantasies. 

Our lives were on hold for two years while I waged war against breast cancer and when we resumed the sexual side of our Dom/sub relationship,  the leap in the availability of BDSM sites online was staggering.  One is BDSMStreak, where short films of literally all categories of BDSM  can be seen for free.  ALL SUBMISSIVES  WHO ARE LOUDLY DECLARING 'NO LIMITS' should go and browse  this site first before declaring anything.  Some films are silly, unintentionally funny, woefully acted scenarios or amateurish; some are very sexy, very professionally done, with demonstrations by professional 'riggers'; some are obviously 'punishments' between a Dom/me and submissive in a long-term relationship - and others are frankly terrifying and disturbing - and those panicking, begging submissives are not acting.  If they were, they'd be in line for an Oscar or a BAFTA.

So, all new submissives, do your research before announcing 'no limits' - and find out what 'no limits' really means outside of your fantasies.  If you cannot find this site, PM us and we'll give you the link.

 

[Deleted Member]

Thank you. I very much agree with your point on "innocent vulnerability", whether it's for attention seeking purposes, or just not thinking. Extreme caution, are the watch words, plus not believing that only doms know what a submissive needs. Again, horror stories of subs being told that their opinions, desires and needs don't count...sorry, but they do. A human rights lawyer would have a "field day" with such phrases, if ever an incident came to court. Some sadists need to remember that every word they write online, is stored in servers, and can be accessed if ever required in the future. Sobering thought, I hope.

[Phoenyx]

Another vitally important step, before engaging in "edge play", is to first research the Dom or Domme.  Try to get to know this person.  What kind of reputation do they have?  How experienced are they?  How skilled are they?  How well can they read body language, and spot possible problems?  Do they respond properly to those problems that they spot?  The bottom line is, would you feel safe with this person?  Or, are they an unthinking, uncaring, unskilled, clumsy, insensitive (and possibly dangerous) brute?  Does your conversation with them raise the hairs on the back of your neck?

Yes, I know, Danger can be a turn-on.  But, is it worth the risk?  In search of such a thrill, you should choose a Dom/Domme, the way you might choose a sky-diving school.  If they are a "pro", they should have a reputation that can be researched.  Really, this should be good advice, even for those wishing to start-out slow.

[Phoenyx]

I should also mention that everyone needs to be on constant guard for the psychos out there.  The BDSM scene is too easy a target for the deranged.  Luckily, in my experiences, I had only one minor run-in with a stalker.  Still, it was a bit unnerving.  She was the ex-girlfriend of a former roommate, and I would not take her as a client.  Yes, she was a nutbar.  Finally, after much hassle, I somehow discouraged her, by simply changing my phone number.  Or, maybe, she simply found some other target for her obsession.  The new number made business a bit of a PITA, for a while.  But, it all worked-out in the end.

However, that doesn't mean that there are not more of them out there.  I'm sure that a few have even prowled this list.  Always be careful and alert.

[Wo****]

This is where RACK is so important.

A lot of what i do with Pirate falls under edge play. We do a lot of impact play, we've done choking.

With the impact play we started slowly, built it up. We have safe words, he knows my limits (impact play wise, very few) he understands me and how i react. I tell him of anything i'm not sure of, we keep an eye on any and all bruises and he is careful what he uses where. With the choking, he only ever does it for a count of 5 and never hard, just enough so i can feel it. He checks in, constantly and focuses intently on me, especially when we're at the club and gives me plenty of aftercare.

 

There has to be absolute trust. From both parties.

I trust that he will never push me too far or do something he isn't confident about.

He trusts me to use my safe word if i need to and to recognise my limits.

 

 

I may take risks but i am aware of them and by doing them with Pirate, who i trust and have a solid relationship with, lessens that risk.

Tbh, i don't think there is anyone i would go as far with in what i do as i do with him because of the trust required to go that far.

[Vandalslut]

On 2/22/2020 at 10:08 PM, Leatherfox2010 said:

Some sadists need to remember that every word they write online, is stored in servers, and can be accessed if ever required in the future. Sobering thought, I hope.

So true!  There was a discussion along these lines a few months ago amongst the more veteran agers here - pressing 'delete' DOESN'T MAKE IT GO AWAY.

[Ar****]

On 2/22/2020 at 7:50 PM, phoenyx said:

Another vitally important step, before engaging in "edge play", is to first research the Dom or Domme.  Try to get to know this person.  What kind of reputation do they have?  How experienced are they?  How skilled are they?  How well can they read body language, and spot possible problems?  Do they respond properly to those problems that they spot?  The bottom line is, would you feel safe with this person?  Or, are they an unthinking, uncaring, unskilled, clumsy, insensitive (and possibly dangerous) brute?  Does your conversation with them raise the hairs on the back of your neck?

Yes, I know, Danger can be a turn-on.  But, is it worth the risk?  In search of such a thrill, you should choose a Dom/Domme, the way you might choose a sky-diving school.  If they are a "pro", they should have a reputation that can be researched.  Really, this should be good advice, even for those wishing to start-out slow.

THIS!! You could not have worded this any better @phoenyx. Ideally I'd say this advice ought to extend beyond just edge play, but there will always be those eager to dive in and experience too much too quickly, throwing all caution to the wind because of the excitement or even simply because they don't know better. All we can do is keep highlighting the importance of caution and hope to reach as many people as we can before damage - or death - occurs.

 

In the past I have had a tendency to see a profile which declares "no limits" which I might otherwise have been interested in and take it as a red flag - I've either assumed they were fake trying to draw gullible fantasists in, or if not I have dismissed them anyway out of the instant feeling of incompatibility I get when reading such words. Perhaps that has not been the best approach.

 

Perhaps in future what I need to do is be even more conscious. I think that now when I see such a profile, especially if it appears to be a young and/or inexperienced user, I need to be messaging them anyway. Checking they really know about the claim they make, sensitively and without being patronising or judgemental of course. It may be a fine line to find and walk, but in any community there is a responsibility to one another which oughtn't be shirked if at all possible.

[ey****]

folk who say 'up for anything' to me often means one of a few things

1) they don't actually know anything about BDSM

Stop!  Go learn some shit - cos diving in is going to get you hurt and not in a fun way.  No one worth their salt will be interested and so the only people who will be interested will either be scammers who see the inexperience as gullible and potentially dangerous players

2) they think it makes them more versatile therefore more people likely to play with them

again. Stop.  Because it's better to do no play then something you don't enjoy for-the-sake-of-it.  I get the idea of "try everything once" but, a good starting point is always with stuff you want to try or already like.  If you do wish to try stuff, it's better explored with someone you trust.

If anything; this makes it less likely people will want to play with you because they already know they're going to have to coerce what you're into out of you.  

[Deleted Member]

I have previously written comprehensively about breath play and choking. The more you research this subject and start to understand what is happening at a physiological level in your body, the more you come to the unavoidable conclusion that choking can’t ever be done safely. Grace Millane may be tragic proof of that.

I’ve conversed with plenty of people who claim to know all about how to “do choking safely”, and who will spout loads about their “techniques” and how they know “just how far to go” and who have “done it safely for years”. Not a single one of them have ever known what a PVC is, in medical terms. “Isn’t that a type of plastic?” someone asked me. Well go and Google it. And then when you’ve done only 15 minutes of research, come back and tell me how you’ll do it safely. Fact is: you can’t. End of. Every time you *** someone, even for as little as a few seconds, you risk triggering a PVC event. Death will quickly follow in almost all cases where rapid professional medical help is not available. Oh, and even then, it’s unlikely you’d survive unless they have a AED device. Or some other defibrillator.

There is breath play and there is choking. These are different, but are often confused with each other. Apnoea is safe when done correctly. Choking is never safe, no matter how you do it.

A long time ago I became sick of arguing with people who had virtually no medical or other relevant knowledge, swearing that they had ways of doing it that made it safe. I don’t waste my breath anymore. I just say “Oh really? Ok then, have fun.” You can’t educate pork...

 

[Vandalslut]

27 minutes ago, Fredddy said:

Grace Millane may be tragic proof of that.

Actually, in the case of Grace Millane, investigators couldn't find any evidence that she'd ever been 'into' BDSM or BDSM practices of any sort.  The only one making that allegation was the killer.  But not one friend, ex or casual partner ever verified it. If you Google the name, there's a chilling account by a female witness who also met the killer on Tindr (I think) met up with him for a drink at a bar, felt there was something 'wrong' about the whole business and made sure she went home alone. And all the time the killer was boasting to this latest conquest that he 'knew people, high up in the police'  Grace was lying on the floor of his motel room, dead.

[Wo****]

9 hours ago, Fredddy said:

the more you come to the unavoidable conclusion that choking can’t ever be done safely. Grace Millane may be tragic proof of that.

Choking isn't safe. Hence RACK.

Grace Millane was ***ed. As Vandalslut posted there was no evidence that Grace ever took part in bdsm practices, it was her killer who used it as an excuse, an accident, a sex game gone wrong.

9 hours ago, Fredddy said:

’ve conversed with plenty of people who claim to know all about how to “do choking safely”, and who will spout loads about their “techniques” and how they know “just how far to go” and who have “done it safely for years”. Not a single one of them have ever known what a PVC is, in medical terms. “Isn’t that a type of plastic?” someone asked me. Well go and Google it. And then when you’ve done only 15 minutes of research, come back and tell me how you’ll do it safely. Fact is: you can’t. End of. Every time you *** someone, even for as little as a few seconds, you risk triggering a PVC event. Death will quickly follow in almost all cases where rapid professional medical help is not available. Oh, and even then, it’s unlikely you’d survive unless they have a AED device. Or some other defibrillator.

There is breath play and there is choking. These are different, but are often confused with each other. Apnoea is safe when done correctly. Choking is never safe, no matter how you do it.

Choking isn't safe, that's why it falls under RACK. Every time Pirate ***s me we are both aware of the risks. 

I know what a PVC is.

 

 

Bdsm can involve risk, serious risk. Which is why threads lke this are important. To educate people, especially newcomers about the risks of some types of play and of making statements like "no limits" and "do anything"

To warn newcomers that there are risks and that there are some dangerous people out there.

[Deleted Member]

I'm extremely heartened by the responses from those who have similar feelings and empathy with this subject. 

Do please remember that there were a few reasons for me bringing this tragedy to the forum. As well as the aweful outcome,  it was the aspect of "rough sex", and the possible links with certain play that some members of this community use, that made me want to high light this case. I wasn't for one moment suggesting that Grace had been involved in, or considered, bdsm. My alert to this community was to make everyone aware that, following the trial, law makers will not only be reviewing the umbrella term "rough sex", but putting in place legislation to stop the term from being a defence excuse, for such future cases. 

When I became more involved with bdsm, about 15 years ago, I read quite widely. One of the books was "SM101" by Jay Wiseman, an American with bdsm links right back into 1970s. He was a paramedic and was involved with the bdsm "Old Guard" in the Society of Janus in San Francisco; he's heterosexual. From his professional background, and his wealth of knowledge, he emphasises the risks that occur with ANY aspect of bdsm. As for both electric play and choking, his cold, and calculated remark is something like, "so you have a medical degree?" If you don't, then you stay away from such play. Bdsm is often between just two people, somewhere quiet and private. If you cause something to happen that incapacitates your play partner, what are you going to do to revive them/help them? You might only have seconds, to prevent death. This isn't a joke. This is reality. How does anyone know how any individual is going to react, to the way in which they are subjected to the whim of someone, whos only knowledge for something is from it being watched it on a porn channel? I appreciate that most here have much deeper backgrounds than that, but that kind of "pseudo dom/ wannabe" exists. Above is the mention,  of RACK, which instils the importance to have a risk assessment in place, to cover any eventuality. If you don't, then perhaps you should get insurance.

Reading, talking, listening, meeting, watching, learning, thinking, considering, interacting, trust, understanding, knowing, assessing - all create a positive atmosphere to promote safety within what we try to enjoy. Beware "rough sex". It's not an excuse.

[Wo****]

RACK. Risk aware consensual kink.

I had no idea what RACK was until i met Pirate. Now it's at the heart of everything and we discuss the risks involved in everything that we do. From where he will use certain impact play toys to his initial reluctance to whip me. 

During every single impact play session he treats it as if it's the first and constantly checks in, starts slowly, watches for my reactions and follows through with aftercare. He checks in regularly over the next few days too.

We've done a small amount of choking which, in fairness, would be better described as him placing his hand around my neck and holding it gently for a maximum count of 5. I expressed an interest in a *** collar. We looked into it and agreed they weren't failsafe and there was a risk - however slight - of something going wrong (and badly/possibly fatal) so we shelved that idea.

 

I discussed knife play with DanteReign as of all the people i know he knows the most about knives. We talked about how i wanted to feel being cut by a blade. It wasn't a sexual thing, it was a masochistic curiousity and i know nothing about knives.

We discussed what would happen, if we did it. Where he would cut and how deep. I wanted the cut to draw *** without going to deep. Limits and safewords were agreed. A new knife, properly cleaned and prepared before use. Alcohol wipes to hand, and tissue.

We agreed on a few light scratches on my shoulder. He started with the flat of the blade on my skin, checked all was ok then applied the tip, checked again and gradually increased the pressure to break my skin. Each time he used the knife he checked in with me and made sure we were both happy to continue. He went deep enough to draw *** but didn't go deeper.

 

I experienced breath play and poppers with Fredddy who was the right person to share it with due to his knowledge of freediving and scuba and his experience with poppers. 

We talked about the effects i could expect and what poppers are and what they actually do and all the possible side effects and risks. He ex***ed his rebreather equipment, showed me how it all worked. He started with a tiny amount, just enough for me to experience the effect without overwhelming me. We judged how i felt after an initial hit and he gradually increased it, monitoring me throughout.

 

Not really sure how to wrap this up, or even quite where i was going with this. Trying to show how RACK works practically j guess.

Anyway, just some thoughts x

[Deleted Member]

2 hours ago, LazyPiratesBounty said:

of all the people i know he knows the most about knives

While I am honoured that you mentioned me, and I truly do adore knives, I still think you exaggerate just how much I know about them. In any case, thank you.

[Wo****]

10 minutes ago, DanteReign said:

While I am honoured that you mentioned me, and I truly do adore knives, I still think you exaggerate just how much I know about them. In any case, thank you.

You knew enough that you're confident handling them and respectful enough not to get carried away in using them.

[Deleted Member]

It seems that all of us on this forum are preaching to the knowledgeably converted! It’s the uneducated and ignorant (ignorant in a nice way, as in simply not knowing) that are most at risk I think.

SSC seems to have been superseded by RACK now, but whichever acronym you use, it’s the very fact that you’ve used one at all that keeps play within sensible boundaries.

Regarding Bounty’s comments above about our shared experiences with poppers and breath play involving a rebreather system, I can’t even begin to describe the sense of responsibility I felt in administering such elements of play with her. It’s massive, and to even contemplate such things without a deep understanding of the physiological effects, possible side effects and other factors would be plain stupid. I absolutely love the whole tone of Leatherfox’s post above. Right on the ***.

The same is true regarding secure restraint. Bounty and I discussed this at length and I had to hand a pair of very large steel cutting scissors that would easily cut the steel bands that secured and restrained her so effectively. I have a general rule of thumb that any and all restraints should be escapable within 15 seconds, with suitable cutters being kept to hand to use immediately if required.

All of this discussion and preparation, in my opinion, leads to reduction of anxiety and better relaxation, which in turn leads to more intense experiences, safe in the knowledge that you’ve done as much as you can to not maim or kill your play partner! It works for me...

 

[Deleted Member]

Thank you again for examples of safety, risk checking, preparedness for unforseen eventualities. Today I read another new female profile, with all the hallmarks of being open to misuse, very genuinely written, but far too much information; a sadist's dream.

i know that this post is preaching to not only the converted, but to the ones who already know and understand their responsibilities. I also realise that even if the owners of this site were to write guidance in full screen sized lettering, the people who don't appreciate risks still probably wouldn't read, or heed, the warnings. But, to do nothing, isn't an option when you know about risks. I feel the step forward is to be politely proactive, and if dubious or worrying profiles ring alarm bells, then we gently point out the risks to those *** profilers. 

Lastly, when anyone eventually feels that they've reached the point within themselves, that they feel the need to take the next step and place themselves on the edge of a completely new, unknown, previously unexplored interest, wouldn't you do some research/background reading first, just so you've prepared yourself for the basics of what you might be exposed to? 

Thank you for your considered thoughts. Don't stop being open minded and expressing opinions.

[Vandalslut]

Just tried to message you, mainly to say thanks for the genuine care and concern you've expressed here.  It's a worry to many of us, the 'sadist's dreams' that are appearing in here.  Aranhis, a fabulous bloke among many fabulous people in here, feels that if we see such profiles as you've described it might be an idea to send them a PM, just as a friendly advice item.  No doubt some will be offended enough to block us; but at least we'll have tried.  Thanks again.

[Ar****]

Ahhhh thank you @Vandalslut *blushes slightly*, like does attract like you know 😂