Submission as a Gift

[ey****]

I decided to start a new thread rather than overall derailing another

But

one of my most hated phrases is "Submission is a gift"

now... OK... I mean, in a relationship it kinda is (but, Dominance is *also* a gift.  So, by default - if in exchange for my (or your) submission I (or you) get your (or my) Dominance, guidance and ability to say it's a relationship... it's an exchange rather than a gift.  A gift expects nothing in return)

I feel the reason i dislike it much is that it's usually used out of where it works.  I see it used more times from guys who are not in a relationship, than anyone else.  As if they have something to offer if only the right person would see it.

Which is fair.  We all have something to offer potential relationships - but - I think in some of these cases it's just presented as a mystery box.  I mean, what is this gift of submission?  And, it's an attempt - a weak attempt - at trying to con(vince) Dominants they have something worth offering.

I think, before you say this, it's worth looking into why it's a gift - what are you offering, what is on offer? But remember that should someone accept this 'gift' - you get what you want (which, as above, makes it not a gift)

Why this is important - is that this can often come over as a form of entitlement.  Being in a relationship should benefit those involved; it's not a gift because you gain from it.   A gift comes with no expectancy in return.  Like, buying someone a birthday present because you like them or a gift "just cos"

If you can learn this; it's certainly a help in understanding submission. 

[Deleted Member]

You're responding to my comment on the other thread, I think. Thank you. I'll try to formulate something sensible later.

[ey****]

Just now, MsWhiteRose said:

You're responding to my comment on the other thread, I think. Thank you. I'll try to formulate something sensible later.

I am; yes. I started to write there then felt I was pulling a little off-topic and that it'd make a good new topic  

[Wo****]

Great thread!

I've just responded on the other thread.

[Wo****]

Copied from the other thread....

 

 

 

Submission is a gift though, isn't it? Or at least a choice? Otherwise, isn't it just someone wanting attention and having control?

Submission is a gift that I give Pirate, I choose to give it. He accepted it. I don't get how you can say it isn't a gift, and how is it topping from the bottom?

I trust Pirate, in and with, everything. I often defer to his opinion but dictate what's right and what's wrong? Depends on specifics. 

 

D/s is about communication, trust, honesty and respect, the four pillars.... how does having a dictator as a Dominant work within that framework? Unless it was an agreed dynamic.

 

"Won't claim to be that perfect. I'm almost that perfect." 😆😆😆

[Deleted Member]

It's a good topic. One that will really stir the hornets' nest. 

Submission is not a gift. 

Oh god, people will love/hate this when I say it: receiving submission from a person is a kind of burden. As a Dominant, you have to be willing to shoulder that. It's a lot of responsibility. 

I'm with eyem in that a D/s relationship is an exchange. Both parties have to do a lot of giving. 

[ey****]

I think somewhat there's context

I wouldn't see my submission as a gift.  Because as soon as someone agrees to accepting it in any situation - I get what I want.  

But, if I was doing any form of play with a submissive - then - yes, I see the value in the gift and I'm honoured and flattered someone trusts me with their body, their boundaries, their limits - and.... I could appreciate that as a gift

But, then it gets a little bit specific.

M/f versus F/m - which are both quite different

[Deleted Member]

Should it not be an equal exchange? Neither a gift or a burden.

[ey****]

3 minutes ago, RowanGreenfire said:

Should it not be an equal exchange? Neither a gift or a burden.

that would be the ideal.

But, having responsibility for someone's well being and state before, during and after play can be a big thing

 

[Ky****]

2 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

that would be the ideal.

But, having responsibility for someone's well being and state before, during and after play can be a big thing

 

in fairness theres a few doms out there who think that dominance is a gift as well, no both are a partnership for however long both parties keep it together

[Deleted Member]

5 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

But, having responsibility for someone's well being and state before, during and after play can be a big thing

 

Is the aftercare and the responsibility for the submissives wellbeing not something that the dominant wants? Any element of point scoring or inequality between the two and it can't work long term unless there is a financial arrangement. The dominant and the submissive should put in equal energy and care, as dominant needs care too.

[Ni****]

I've never considered submission as a gift personally, but owning a submissive is a serious responsibility and takes effort and thought from the Dom / Domme. I see my relationship with my permanent submissive as a partnership, where both gain something they want or need from each other.

[Carnelian2]

I think we might be splitting hairs here, pardon the expression. 

I have used the term in response to women who were subjected to presumptious behaviour from Doms, who assumed that they should be ready to submit without taking the time to get to know another person.

It is simple; consensual - four pillars of which communication before the event may be the most important. What might be acceptable Dominant behaviour for one submissive may be *** to another.

Think about that.

[ey****]

2 minutes ago, RowanGreenfire said:

Is the aftercare and the responsibility for the submissives wellbeing not something that the dominant wants? Any element of point scoring or inequality between the two and it can't work long term unless there is a financial arrangement. The dominant and the submissive should put in equal energy and care, as dominant needs care too.

I think it's important to avoid point scoring (and, "submission is a gift" could be deemed point scoring )

But, imagine as thus 

You're in a club and a sub approaches you for play.  Great.  But, you don't have a blank cheque to do what you want.  You'd need to find their interests, likes, limits, boundaries and see if that is compatible - something you will enjoy.  But of course, for example - I might sometimes slip my fingers into the vagina whilst spanking someone I know this ok with - but it's not OK with everyone.  

So, the onus is on you. It's also on you to keep an eye on their well being during the scene - and of course aftercare afterwards.   

You , as the Dominant, may well have your own aftercare needs but your priority is the sub.   

And that's a lot of work, energy and effort.  Which I'm not saying isn't worth it.  But, still.

Remember - if you cross the lines, you will be blamed for disrespecting boundaries or failing to gain consent - ahead of their possible failure as of not communicating boundaries.

Obviously in this scenario we're talking one off club play - something as part of an ongoing established relationship might differ.  

But, this is certainly an unequal footing because, well, from the subs perspective you just need to go through what you enjoy or agreed to.  A lot of onus and work on the Dominants part.   And, I think that's good to understand

 

Not that I want to disuade people approaching me in clubs But, I have felt the emotional burn from this. 

[Deleted Member]

A submissive should not be lazy, they should find out about their dom too. It's far too easy to allow all responsibility to rest on the dominant. But that's in an ideal world, I appreciate that.

[ey****]

3 minutes ago, RowanGreenfire said:

A submissive should not be lazy, they should find out about their dom too. It's far too easy to allow all responsibility to rest on the dominant. But that's in an ideal world, I appreciate that.

of course - and this is something where some can fall flat

 

[Deleted Member]

I don't think of submission as a gift, to me the word ' gift' implies feelings benevolence or kindness and I truly don't think that's what inspires most submissives certainly not in my case . I submit for purely selfish reasons , I'm not a selfish person but I do it for my own needs . If a dominant approached me with the attitude that he wanted to give me the ' gift' of his dominance time attention ect , I'd probably lose interest and be turned off. This is just my personal opinion and is in no way a response to anybody else's points made xx

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, RowanGreenfire said:

A submissive should not be lazy, they should find out about their dom too. It's far too easy to allow all responsibility to rest on the dominant. But that's in an ideal world, I appreciate that.

No disrespect to you, Rowan, but I feel like saying LOL to this. Maybe I've just had a poor experience with subs. Maybe it's just male subs... it's usually all about how THEY want to serve me, and THEIR idea of what that means. They pester me for my attention, endlessly. They don't ask what MY needs are. 

Ideally, in a Female-Led Relationship, this problem would be resolved. And I make it my mission to teach them about submission during our communications. But it rarely leads to me wanting to take things further with them. 

[Carnelian2]

D/s is consensual, so it has to be based on communication and establishing that common ground. It is possible that either party go into the relationship with different expectations, then it becomes a question of whether it is worth taking it any further. As simple as that.

There are two levels to any relationship - the basis, where people have common interests and actually get along. Then you have the D/s element. If you only have the D/s element, then it is a transaction.

... and yes, both parties have to be interested in the needs of the other person, exactly like a vanilla relationship just with the additional D/s dimension.

[Deleted Member]

3 minutes ago, Carnelian2 said:

There are two levels to any relationship - the basis, where people have common interests and actually get along. Then you have the D/s element. If you only have the D/s element, then it is a transaction. 

 

I agree with this. It is transactional, unless there is a deeper relationship forming the foundation. Yet if I ask for my side of the 'transaction' to be fulfilled, some male subs become indignant. As if their glorious service is supposed to be enough. 

Truth is, they want to fulfil their side of the transaction the way that they choose. This is topping from the bottom and not submission. 

[Deleted Member]

I too struggle with the concept that Submission is a gift.... I can see where the saying comes from but I personally feel it’s an exchange. When I submit I make it my business to learn what my dominant wants and needs because I see his dominance as ‘a gift’ also. Anyone entering a D/S dynamic and feeling they outweigh their chosen partner and they are in fact treating them to ‘a gift’ doesn’t understand the relationship at all 💗

[Carnelian2]

12 minutes ago, little_dark_princess said:

 When I submit I make it my business to learn what my dominant wants and needs because I see his dominance as ‘a gift’ also.

I like the way you said that. To know the other person's wants and needs is a process, it takes time. In many ways, the current situation with social distancing ***s us to communicate and maybe get to know each other a little better. 

In my view, that cannot be a bad thing. Rather the opposite :-)

[Deleted Member]

5 minutes ago, Carnelian2 said:

I like the way you said that. To know the other person's wants and needs is a process, it takes time. In many ways, the current situation with social distancing ***s us to communicate and maybe get to know each other a little better. 

In my view, that cannot be a bad thing. Rather the opposite :-)

Two good albeit new friends have taught me this very lesson this week and that’s why I believe we are always learning. Understanding other human beings is difficult enough but when you add in the extra dimension of BDSM it becomes a huge task. 

[Deleted Member]

2 hours ago, MsWhiteRose said:

No disrespect to you, Rowan, but I feel like saying LOL to this. Maybe I've just had a poor experience with subs. Maybe it's just male subs... it's usually all about how THEY want to serve me, and THEIR idea of what that means. They pester me for my attention, endlessly. They don't ask what MY needs are. 

Ideally, in a Female-Led Relationship, this problem would be resolved. And I make it my mission to teach them about submission during our communications. But it rarely leads to me wanting to take things further with them. 

I feel no disrespect from your response. I did say in an ideal world as I'm aware that every relationship is different. I stand by my comment though, the submissive shouldn't be lazy and should learn what their dominants needs are. I dont know if it is just male submissives that are like that. I can't imagine it is. If the person chosen as dominant or submissive is self centred and not interested in finding out their partners needs, they may be a bad choice. 

Whether or not a female led relationship would change that I have no idea. Females can be just the same as males. I personally feel getting an equal balance of the male/female energy is required but that is just my opinion 😊. I'm also far from perfect myself, but I have learned from mistakes that I've made over the years. That I guess is all anyone can do, learn from past experiences and grow. 

 

[Phoenyx]

Somehow, one crucial element seems overlooked in this discussion.  It is the instance where the offerings of the sub, match what the Dom/me actually desires.  From the tone of this thread, I get the impression that no one believes that such a relationship could exist.  Yet, isn't that the goal of the initial negotiations?  Isn't that the time to decide if harmony is possible?  The goal isn't to change or mold the other person.  It's to find someone close to your own heart, and hope that you grow together.