Submission as a Gift

[TemptressM]

Submission is a gift,  its something they choose to give up and it shouldnt be taken lightly.   A  lot of submissives do not understand this and will hand it over to the first Dominant that shows them any form of interest.(And some Dominants take it)  It is up to both the Dominant and the sub to work in the relationship of course but its more up to the Dominant to gain the trust in any play.  There is a difference when someone kneels for you without that connection there that takes time and trust to build.  When a sub truly hands over everything its beautiful so yes a gift. 

[Vandalslut]

5 hours ago, phoenyx said:

I get the impression that no one believes that such a relationship could exist. 

It DOES seem to be that way, doesn't it?  Such a relationship is possible, and it can exist. It exists for the Vandal and I.   

Agreed. A gift does not demand a return. It’s something freely given for a celebration or 'just because', and very nice, too. It’s a physical demonstration of love, esteem, regard etc. What's under discussion here is all that you can't  gift-wrap and put under the Christmas tree. Love is one - submission is another. When love is offered and accepted, then it is a gift that can be demonstrated in acts of love, a gift that can be experienced, sensed and valued. I would say that when submission is OFFERED - then ACCEPTED – then it has become a gift of choice.    Submission can be demonstrated, experienced, sensed and valued. An expensive leather wallet on the shop shelf is still only an expensive leather wallet. It belongs to no-one and isn’t - as yet - a gift. It becomes a gift when it has been given and accepted. It’s become valuable and significant through acceptance. If it’s refused, it is remains an expensive leather wallet. The only value it has is what’s on the price tag.

When a submissive says to a Dominant, “I offer you may submission,” the submissive is also asking, “Will you accept my offering?”  If the Dominant accepts the offer, submission has been given, accepted and has become the submissive’s gift to the Dominant. 

We might expect gifts, and be disappointed; we might expect and receive gifts; or we might get or give a gift as a pleasant surprise. Who would just snatch a gift not intended for them because they believe it’s their ‘right’ to have it? And would that behaviour be generally acceptable? Yet the 'Bull-Dominants' – about whom much has been said lately – do display a snatch and grab mentality. Any submissive is ‘theirs’ to use, order about, humiliate or correct; communication begins and ends with, ‘SUBMIT TO ME!’ They show no concept of – or interest in - trust, clear communication, recognition of limits, protocol, responsibility, unique dynamics or growth; and the submissive is expected to provide on demand with no instruction as to what is wanted by the Dominant. If psychic ability is a necessary submissive qualification, then stipulate it. And good luck with finding a psychic submissive who can cater unasked to every unspoken whim, wish and desire.

Right behind the ‘I am a Dominant because I say so’ trend comes the competition to get a stable of submissives – suitable or not – as if this puerile one-upmanship of ‘I’m better than you ’cause I’ve got more subs’ really does make them the ‘best’. If a Dominant chooses quantity rather than quality, then there's no room for complaint about lack of quality.

There are those who declare as submissive and are ready to 'give anything' without any idea that they will receive literally 'anything'. This open offer will not get a submissive the Dominant of their dreams. What they’ll get is a Dominant who’ll not only make them take ‘anything’, they’ll get a Dominant who ACCEPTS any submissive on offer, whether suitable or not. An equally distressing lack of definition, knowledge and communication. And finesse.

When submission is offered and accepted, the gift is that of complete trust in the Dominant. Trust can’t be put in a pretty box with a ribbon wrapped around it – yet trust exists. Domination IS the gift of acceptance of the submissive’s offering, and the communication of the Dominant's desires so the submissive may fulfil them. 

 

6 hours ago, phoenyx said:

Yet, isn't that the goal of the initial negotiations?  Isn't that the time to decide if harmony is possible? 

Harmony - a beautiful word. A  submissive is attracted to a Dominant; a Dominant is  attracted to a submissive. Thus far, all either party knows is that they see someone who appeals to them.  Communication is the beginning of negotiation; if the wants, needs and desires of both are in harmony; what the dynamic of the relationship will be; the responsibilities of BOTH need to be determined within the unique dynamic, however long or short a time it lasts;  if there is a long term relationship in the making then there's more factors such as employment, higher education, *** etc. in the frame. There has been much said, by both Dominants and submissives, about the necessity for communication in BDSM relationships, no matter what the dynamic may be.  The Dominant and the submissive gradually get to know each other through communication and a healthy, satisfying relationship results.   Both have specific responsibilities and when both acknowledge and shoulder those responsibilities, accept them and fulfil them, they and the relationship deepen and mature. If both are investing willing, patient effort then there is far more chances of success.

If a Dominant or submissive is unwilling to take on the duties and responsibilities of their role; if it's all too much like hard work - then find something else to do.

If a Dominant/submissive relationship isn’t satisfactory to both, then one of the vital foundations for success - trust, communication, recognition of limits, responsibility - has obviously failed. Both have responsibility for that failure and the Dominant is not exempt from his/her share of the failure just because he/she is the Dominant. Communicate. Fix it. Or move on.

 

[Deleted Member]

19 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I decided to start a new thread rather than overall derailing another

But

one of my most hated phrases is "Submission is a gift"

now... OK... I mean, in a relationship it kinda is (but, Dominance is *also* a gift.  So, by default - if in exchange for my (or your) submission I (or you) get your (or my) Dominance, guidance and ability to say it's a relationship... it's an exchange rather than a gift.  A gift expects nothing in return)

I feel the reason i dislike it much is that it's usually used out of where it works.  I see it used more times from guys who are not in a relationship, than anyone else.  As if they have something to offer if only the right person would see it.

Which is fair.  We all have something to offer potential relationships - but - I think in some of these cases it's just presented as a mystery box.  I mean, what is this gift of submission?  And, it's an attempt - a weak attempt - at trying to con(vince) Dominants they have something worth offering.

I think, before you say this, it's worth looking into why it's a gift - what are you offering, what is on offer? But remember that should someone accept this 'gift' - you get what you want (which, as above, makes it not a gift)

Why this is important - is that this can often come over as a form of entitlement.  Being in a relationship should benefit those involved; it's not a gift because you gain from it.   A gift comes with no expectancy in return.  Like, buying someone a birthday present because you like them or a gift "just cos"

If you can learn this; it's certainly a help in understanding submission. 

If a sub want to describe her/his submission as a gift lets have them. Its a concept that give a hight status or self importance that got no really a profound value. In a submission life how many time are you handing over that gift? over the time you will understand that's not essential.

This statement only work for one type of submission, a long term one, are you sure it will last for ever? some sub are not interested in that, some want just to be used, some masochist are not interested in love or the gift spirit they want someone who knows how to give them their pound of flesh, some just want to be part of a house, some just want to be the party toilet, some want to be the round the table gangbang fucktoy etc....and they all submit one way or another without the ceremonial "gift". 

I always considered it as a power exchange with some serious ground of agreements. This is what I want and how I do it, and the sub reply this is what  I want and don't want. I trust you will do it with care and trust.

Some here talk about love? there is no love in submission unless you already are a couple or intend to be one, some subs are married already or have a vanilla life and don't want this type of relationship. I had some uni students and were happy to have a mature Dom but not sure they want me hanging around at their party lol! I had single mums and were happy to just have a D/s relationship. 

Too many confusion and generalising about submission! remember its about you and another person, we are not all around you watching your dynamics like at a wedding celebration judging if you do it the right way? 

I guess the only gift for me is that the sub is bdsm virgin  and I will upset a few again with my post now

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Deleted Member

[Ky****]

6 hours ago, phoenyx said:

Somehow, one crucial element seems overlooked in this discussion.  It is the instance where the offerings of the sub, match what the Dom/me actually desires.  From the tone of this thread, I get the impression that no one believes that such a relationship could exist.  Yet, isn't that the goal of the initial negotiations?  Isn't that the time to decide if harmony is possible?  The goal isn't to change or mold the other person.  It's to find someone close to your own heart, and hope that you grow together.

quite agree with you, sometimes I think people, well ok me but I suspect others as well, mistake a D/s relationship with what occurs between a client and a professional.  Even in that case there has to be some mutual interest but when its more transactional it can be more about what the sub wants and is paying for.  Mainly because that isn't a relationship, and indeed it must be questioned how submissive someone is in that instance since they are just paying for a temporary service.  Not criticising, or dissing to use the modern idiom, professionals the ones I've interacted with have been wonderful professional people and in some cases I've a sort of friendship now they've retired, at least to the same level as with a publican.  Indeed they've opened my eyes to things by providing a safe space to try.  However, the two can't be confused, a D/s relationship is like any other its not about what 1 party wants its about your mutual interests

[Carnelian2]

1 hour ago, FabSeverus said:

 I always considered it as a power exchange with some serious ground of agreements. This is what I want and how I do it, and the sub reply this is what  I want and don't want. I trust you will do it with care and trust.

Too many confusion and generalising about submission! remember its about you and another person, we are not all around you watching your dynamics like at a wedding celebration judging if you do it the right way? 

I guess the only gift for me is that the sub is bdsm virgin  and I will upset a few again with my post now

 

@FabSeverus - maybe you will, but whatever floats your boat works and as long as it is consensual who cares.

 

I think the aspect is on communication and the fact that nobody should take somebody else for granted or assume that they somehow subscribe to their definition of what submission or Domination means. "Gift" is shorter than a lot of wordy explanations though - it is a choice and also a choice as to who you submit to, as indeed it is a choice for the Dominant as to whether they wish to accept submission from someone. That comes down to whether people actually get along or not - and I think that applies as much in short-term as in long-term play.

 

@Vandalslut - I love the way you express it. Beautiful. Not quite succinct but effective 😎

[Wo****]

Maybe it's just a case of "one size doesn't fit all"

 

 

As a submissive I choose to offer my submission. Chose to offer it to Pirate. He accepted it. It was, and is, a gift. 

Thinking back.... we chatted on here to start with, just general stuff, got on well, had some similar kinks, had some common ground. Flirted, talked more and got to know each other. Thinking back y'know I'm not sure there was actually a defined moment when I went "I submit to you" it just evolved. We understood each other.

 

For me, my D/s relationship is part of my entire relationship. I love Pirate, and being with him, in a vanilla way too. We are partners and friends As well as being in a D/s dynamic.

 

Pirate gave me a gift too, by accepting my submission. 

 

A few random thoughts ... I'm pondering...

 

One of the reasons why what Pirate and I have is so good is that our sadism/masochism matches so so well.

We have a rapport, a bond. One that we build on. A mutual respect and trust.

I am more of a follower than a leader. An introvert. I look to Pirate.

Idk, for me submission IS a gift but it works both ways. When you find a relationship where both people just get it then it's a gift.

I think when I say submission is a gift I mean it on so many levels, and I'm referring to so much more.

Finding someone that I really have submitted to, body, mind and soul, someone who knows what that means... in all its forms.... it's about more than just, Idk... 

 

When I met Pirate I was after a casual kinda thing until I moved to the US. What we have now, it evolved, still is into something quite unexpected. That's the gift.

[ey****]

9 hours ago, phoenyx said:

It is the instance where the offerings of the sub, match what the Dom/me actually desires.  From the tone of this thread, I get the impression that no one believes that such a relationship could exist

Oh, of course.

I think some as I touch above goes into some of the differences between M/f and F/m.   But, also - it's still reciprocal.

And that's still a beautiful thing.

I do believe anyone in a D/s relationship should treasure it like a gift - but it's always about what you give each other.

[Wo****]

12 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

Oh, of course.

I think some as I touch above goes into some of the differences between M/f and F/m.   But, also - it's still reciprocal.

And that's still a beautiful thing.

I do believe anyone in a D/s relationship should treasure it like a gift - but it's always about what you give each other.

A good D/s dynamic, whatever that is to someone, maybe that's the gift....

Ha, in which case MrSheep... I was right submission is a gift 😋😋😋 (seriously though.... ***y good thread. Thought provoking. Tbf, I think a lot of us think the same, we just express it differently)

[ey****]

I think I did kinda want to do this thread to provoke a little discussion and different views.

I think folk are generally on the same wavelength.

-

I do think, for example, there's a big difference between M/f and F/m also.   I know from a lot of the emails I get from 'sub males' to my film producer email address that, a lot, their 'gift' - well, as soon as anyone accepts it they get their fantasy, for sure.

[Deleted Member]

10 hours ago, phoenyx said:

Somehow, one crucial element seems overlooked in this discussion.  It is the instance where the offerings of the sub, match what the Dom/me actually desires.  From the tone of this thread, I get the impression that no one believes that such a relationship could exist.  Yet, isn't that the goal of the initial negotiations?  Isn't that the time to decide if harmony is possible?  The goal isn't to change or mold the other person.  It's to find someone close to your own heart, and hope that you grow together.

I really like what you've said, @phoenyx

Confession: I'm a little bit jaded right now. A little bit burned out. You get to that point where you don't believe that such a relationship could exist. I know it DOES exist and that some people have wonderfully harmonious D/s relationships. I love to hear about those - it gives me hope. 

Can we have more uplifting stories about these happy D/s relationships here, please? 

I need a boost and I know I'm not operating from the best part of me right now. 

[Deleted Member]

17 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I do think, for example, there's a big difference between M/f and F/m also.   I know from a lot of the emails I get from 'sub males' to my film producer email address that, a lot, their 'gift' - well, as soon as anyone accepts it they get their fantasy, for sure.

I do think there's a difference between M/f and F/m with this. I don't want to bang on about it too much but f subs (remember I was one) have a whole bunch of qualities that I'd like to see more of in m subs.

But, as I said to you yesterday, eyem, I do enjoy the process with a newish male sub of leading him towards submission, and showing him how deeply he needs to surrender. They don't always make it through the process, preferring to retain control, and drive their own agenda. That just means they're not the right subs for me. 

But you give a lot, in this process. And it's wearying to come out of it empty-handed and unfulfilled. 

Thank you again, for starting this thread. It's a good one and there's been a lot of food for thought. 

[Carnelian2]

5 minutes ago, MsWhiteRose said:

"showing him how deeply he needs to surrender"

Is that not where the whole things falls down though?

You are taking your perspective and your perspective alone into account from what you are writing. I know I am taking a statement out of context and I am doing this deliberately.
Maybe start with a mindset of finding out what you have in common; what the sub is prepared to give versus what you want and then build on that.

Yes, there will be cases where there is not enough to build on - but at least give it a chance. Sometimes people really do not know how to express their wants and needs incl. what
they are willing to give - it takes dialogue. it takes mutual respect. Most of all it takes patience.

Maybe one of the issues with online media like this one is this expectation of instant gratification. There is none. Only hard work and patience.

[Deleted Member]

8 minutes ago, Carnelian2 said:

Is that not where the whole things falls down though?

You are taking your perspective and your perspective alone into account from what you are writing. I know I am taking a statement out of context and I am doing this deliberately.
Maybe start with a mindset of finding out what you have in common; what the sub is prepared to give versus what you want and then build on that.

Yes, there will be cases where there is not enough to build on - but at least give it a chance. Sometimes people really do not know how to express their wants and needs incl. what they are willing to give - it takes dialogue. it takes mutual respect. Most of all it takes patience.

Maybe one of the issues with online media like this one is this expectation of instant gratification. There is none. Only hard work and patience.

 

I'm certainly not seeking instant gratification. That's one of the lessons I aim to teach them, early on. 

I'm merely saying that I give a lot, in those early phases, and it leaves me feeling drained sometimes. 

Getting to know someone, yes, and part of that is discovering if they can be submissive to me. It does take hard work and as I often tell new subs who are in frenzy, it can really take a few years to find/make a good D/s relationship. You have to see it as a long game. 

As I've said, I'm a little burned out and jaded right now. A friend told me yesterday that I'm still trying too hard to please others. Maybe I am. Maybe I should be MORE dominant about my needs and wants. Do you see what I mean?  It's a dance. A difficult balance. I'm still figuring some of it out and expect I will be for years to come. 

Meanwhile, I'll keep topping male subs to work on my skills, my communication, my ability to understand them. And sometimes I'll moan too much about them here, just to get the frustration off my chest. 

[Carnelian2]

@MsWhiteRose - Patience, Rose, patience. You are a lovely person, let people see that. If some muppet does not have the patience, well, then that muppet may not be for you. 

For myself, I am not 100% clear on what I am looking for, as everytime, I think I have found the holy grail, something happens to challenge that - in good ways, but that is part of the journey. Now, I cannot express that very well myself.

Since I do not consider my communication skills below par, I have to assume that others are equally poor at expressing wants and needs 😘

[Deleted Member]

Yes @Carnelian2, I have to say that each challenge or attempt to create a relationship is a learning experience about myself, and I hope for the other person too. I think to be on this path you are generally a person that wants to learn and grow. It takes courage and determination, on both sides. 

I'm seeing this lockdown period as a chance for me to retreat and to fill my own well. It's been good to slow down. I hope you're back safely in UK now? 

[ey****]

One of the things I learnt quite quickly when I rejoined the scene about 7 years ago is that there were a lot of seeming sub guys who couldn't understand why a lot of prospective Mistresses wouldn't "give them a chance" or "mould via training"

And things I learnt from that was of course that a lot of moulding is micromanaging which is very draining and time consuming. And a lot of Ladies I'd come across would have stories of people they had given a chance to who would of course take all the time and emotions that had been invested in them only to decide it's not for them, or that they're trained now so would flit off to someone else, or that it wasn't what they expected.

-

I can't quite empathise with how my Mistress felt when our D/s relationship ended, but I know how I felt.  (I mean, after we broke up it left her with 5 subs, including one she took on just that day - as well as a family life.   But, I'd made a lot of decisions based just around her which had sacrificed other things or relationships.) And, for me I felt pretty jaded and felt like things were over/over.  I knew I was being a touch melodramatic in some ways - that obviously some people would still want to play or film with me - but it felt like things we'd built in the relationship, that, it'd be going back to square 1 and square 1 seemed a very far way in the past.

I guess there's a somewhat empathy of how jaded I know things can feel.  

I guess also that, towards the end, I really was starting to be a little unhappy.  It was something I thought could be turned around and some of my unhappiness was because I felt what I was doing wasn't making her happy (whether this was from things I was right to feel, or how I interpreted stuff. ) 

I guess what I'm saying is it felt like a lot of emotional effort and ended with... I dunno... I guess, I understand why things can end up jaded.  Emotional investment is quite a heavy currency.

[Deleted Member]

@eyemblacksheep Big hugs. And big thanks. Like, I know you're not just here to bolster my position but so often you say something from a male sub perspective that shows me I'm not totally barking mad. This bit especially: 
 

Quote

And things I learnt from that was of course that a lot of moulding is micromanaging which is very draining and time consuming. And a lot of Ladies I'd come across would have stories of people they had given a chance to who would of course take all the time and emotions that had been invested in them only to decide it's not for them, or that they're trained now so would flit off to someone else, or that it wasn't what they expected.

 

I'll just say, yup. Micromanaging. 

I want to have communication about interesting things, not micromanaging the finer details of their lives every day. Partly, that's my bad for getting drawn into some of that. 

To clarify what I find interesting (maybe I should stick this in my profile description): 

> films, music, books, the arts, travel, politics, spirituality, silly humour, my dog.... 

I love to be geeky and talk geek stuff with someone who shares my geeks and interests. I don't want to be delivering commands all the time. 

 

As to the second part of your post. I'd like to listen, if you want to talk about it more. It sounds ***ful. Ending a relationship is always hard. And I really get what you mean about going back to square 1. Feeling like you don't have the currency to make all of that investment again. 

Having people around that love you anyway... that's the only solution I know of. 

[ey****]

14 minutes ago, MsWhiteRose said:

often you say something from a male sub perspective that shows me I'm not totally barking mad. This bit especially

I'm by no means perfection, for sure - buuut - I spent a lot of time lurking online before I got generally involved and I learnt a lot from guys who clearly got it wrong.  

16 minutes ago, MsWhiteRose said:

I'll just say, yup. Micromanaging. 

Somewhat, I think something that doesn't help is some of the fantasy v reality stuff - and I think there's an all too common fantasy particularly around structure - and this can border on micromanaging which is of course emotionally tiring. 

I think there's a line though.  Being proactive is a good sub trait, but also there's in "knowing what needs done" 

And that's a weird one sometimes.

23 minutes ago, MsWhiteRose said:

As to the second part of your post. I'd like to listen, if you want to talk about it more

At some point I might make a post and/or blog about it - but I'm generally happy to answer questions

24 minutes ago, MsWhiteRose said:

Having people around that love you anyway... that's the only solution I know of. 

One thing that helped in that case.... I made a knee-jerk decision to attend an awards event - and there's a lot of story to this event, but kinda turning up and bumping into a bunch of people, some of which were friends, some of which became friends - it kinda... I still felt sad that day (I got quite drunk.... and felt like I was burdening folk until someone whispered in my ear ".....let me tell you a secret, we're all drunk") but it gave me some form of optimism that stuff goes on.

[helenOfToy]

I kind of hesitated to add my opinion to this discussion as my experience is very limited.

Personally I don't really understand why a sub would have an agenda to satisfy, to me submission means completely giving over power and pride and any desire beyond wanting to serve and please your D. Anything less is not truly submission.

Saying that, I do think true submission is a gift, it is the gift of absolute love for and trust in your D, surrendering your power to them is to place your life and your safety into their hands. By the same token true dominance is also a gift, it is about promising to protect and care for a sub as well as fulfilling your desires through them.

In any relationship, both sides have gifts to give, sometimes physical, sometimes emotional, you don't do it in expectation of something in return, you do it in trust that your love will be reciprocated, if you don't open your heart and trust someone, how can you truly know them?

It seems to me that any good D/s relationship should have that.

[Ky****]

2 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I think I did kinda want to do this thread to provoke a little discussion and different views.

I think folk are generally on the same wavelength.

-

I do think, for example, there's a big difference between M/f and F/m also.   I know from a lot of the emails I get from 'sub males' to my film producer email address that, a lot, their 'gift' - well, as soon as anyone accepts it they get their fantasy, for sure.

wonder about M/t and F/t, is there a difference as well?

[Carnelian2]

1 hour ago, MsWhiteRose said:

Yes @Carnelian2, I have to say that each challenge or attempt to create a relationship is a learning experience about myself, and I hope for the other person too. I think to be on this path you are generally a person that wants to learn and grow. It takes courage and determination, on both sides. 

I'm seeing this lockdown period as a chance for me to retreat and to fill my own well. It's been good to slow down. I hope you're back safely in UK now? 

@MsWhiteRoseyes, thank you, been back a couple of weeks. Good to be home. I think the positive in this situation is that we can take time to get to know people we have connected with without the inherent thoughts about if an when you end up meeting the person or not.
Even for people, I know in person, it is still good to see another side of that person, as it can be difficult to see that at munches and other events.

@eyemblacksheepyes, it does feel like the rug has been pulled out underneath you when a relationship ends. I am very good at compartmentalizing and "moving on", which means that sometimes (most times?), I forget to take the time to reflect, which of course means that it hits me hard when it does catch up. I am a little better at recognizing the signs and letting it play through , but it still hits me - it is recognising what hit you four months after, that is the challenge for this compartmentalizer! :-)

I don't think there is much to be done other than to be clear on people's expectations in the relationship - even then, it can hit hard when it finishes. Loss is something we have to deal with and it is never easy. Then again we can only deal with our own feelings and as much as we can empathize we cannot own the feelings or reactions of others.

[Carnelian2]

22 minutes ago, Paul_aka_Helen said:

Personally I don't really understand why a sub would have an agenda to satisfy, to me submission means completely giving over power and pride and any desire beyond wanting to serve and please your D. Anything less is not truly submission.

Saying that, I do think true submission is a gift, it is the gift of absolute love for and trust in your D, surrendering your power to them is to place your life and your safety into their hands. By the same token true dominance is also a gift, it is about promising to protect and care for a sub as well as fulfilling your desires through them.

In any relationship, both sides have gifts to give, sometimes physical, sometimes emotional, you don't do it in expectation of something in return, you do it in trust that your love will be reciprocated, if you don't open your heart and trust someone, how can you truly know them?

It seems to me that any good D/s relationship should have that.

Hi - I can only speak for myself about the agenda - and I agree with what you are saying. The challenge I think is on communication and establishing boundaries - there are certain things that I would not even consider in a relationship, which literally will make me walk up and leave. This is due to personal experiences outside of D/s. That does not make any less of a worthwhile submissive to the right person. I think as Rose, also said, it is about finding the right person to establish that bond.
Also, I very much see D/s as emotional more so than physical - anyone can do the physical but it is the emotional and human connection that is important, and when that is in place, it is beautiful.
I was a rope-top with someone  just before this COVID-19 thing happened, and the emotional connection was amazing, absolutely beautiful, and left me walking on clouds for days.
It is not about the role you play but the bond you establish - in this case literally!
I may not see the person again due to the current situation but it has started me off on a journey. I just feel fortunate that she chose me to be her rope-top, at least for those couple of hours.

[cautiousswitch]

I could point to all the threads about overbearing dom/mes and suggest that this could be what some people mean when they speak of submission being a gift.  Perhaps they've had bad experiences with people assuming the dominant role and are looking for someone that they want to be their dom/me by choice.  This would include the possible misunderstanding on their part of the D/s relationship and their belief that a dom/me is allowed to order any submissive person into a relationship.

[ey****]

1 hour ago, Kymi said:

wonder about M/t and F/t, is there a difference as well?

Probably; and something I should put in that obviously there's a lot of combos I miss and I'm very hetero-normative in examples.  I feel my experience is too limited (and also a lot is whether we're talking about trans men, or trans women) from what I've seen is a lot of trans women in F/t can often seek stuff which helps with transition or gender affirmation (which I've also seen in trans men) I've also come across trans women who indulge in a lot of heavy/masochist play 

I think hypothetically, I'd see relatively little difference in having a trans woman sub than a cis woman sub.  But this is something I'd neither specifically seek nor avoid.

I have come across people who've sought trans subs either through being a 'chaser' or through some form of negative trait - for example, given the example I've come across trans women who indulge in heavy play - that there can be people who get off on hurting somebody *because* they're trans.  Which I feel is somewhat problematic.  But, context applies.

[Deleted Member]

5 hours ago, Kymi said:

wonder about M/t and F/t, is there a difference as well?

There could be a difference but I would never generalize about trans people because I'm cisgender. I would definitely appreciate hearing more about the experience of trans men and trans women in BDSM and would happily have trans subs. 

I find that sissy subs are much more like cis female subs. And with some sissies, there is almost a transgender experience going on, though not with everyone. 

In my 20s I was more involved in the gay scene, and I loved butch and androgynous lesbians. Still do. Some butch lesbians adopt very cis male traits. I love all the blurring of gender identities like that. And I love cross-dressing men. 

So it seems that it's just cis male heteronormative subs I have some issues with   oh dear!