Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 Just now, Curvykate said: Why are you taking offence when it hasn’t been given? Offense is subjective, i am not offended by the OP but rightly or wrongly feel that the view points of many submissive have been negated, ignored, or straight up dismissed. Granted the OP asked for Dominant views but on a subject that affects submissive people it is perhaps imperative to have both view points. by opening a thread, you enter into a willing position to receive feedback from those that agree or disagree with you point of view. the OP has had many comments that gave justification as to why his opinion was hypocritical, narrow minded or ignorant. Arguably it is his choice to take in any of the information and opinions he receives. unfortunately due to reading the responses and the previous post the OP made i was able to make inferences towards a mentality that he further perpetuates. this is not ok with me, and as a woman, as submissive and a daughter is it not viable that someone asking about a daughter being a female submissive should perhaps listen to mine and the other views expressed here. Interestingly as one of the first to comment on this topic, you described your wish to not comment on this topic very clearly. why now do you feel the need to call me out? did my viewpoint offend you ?
Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 12 minutes ago, little_red_92 said: Offense is subjective, i am not offended by the OP but rightly or wrongly feel that the view points of many submissive have been negated, ignored, or straight up dismissed. Granted the OP asked for Dominant views but on a subject that affects submissive people it is perhaps imperative to have both view points. by opening a thread, you enter into a willing position to receive feedback from those that agree or disagree with you point of view. the OP has had many comments that gave justification as to why his opinion was hypocritical, narrow minded or ignorant. Arguably it is his choice to take in any of the information and opinions he receives. unfortunately due to reading the responses and the previous post the OP made i was able to make inferences towards a mentality that he further perpetuates. this is not ok with me, and as a woman, as submissive and a daughter is it not viable that someone asking about a daughter being a female submissive should perhaps listen to mine and the other views expressed here. Interestingly as one of the first to comment on this topic, you described your wish to not comment on this topic very clearly. why now do you feel the need to call me out? did my viewpoint offend you ? My comment said I found the topic uncomfortable - not that I didn’t wish to comment. It’s a highly volatile discussion clearly - I wouldn’t describe what I’ve said as calling you out. I challenged you as you are challenging the original poster. You have said you don’t feel he is listening to your views as a sub. I think he is listening, he just doesn’t agree. You are making “inferences” which he has denied more than once. I guess I don’t like seeing a pile-on. 🤷🏻♀️
Mz_Whiplash Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 I personally, feel.. this is just a situation that has fueled many aspects of every dynamic and for what end ?..
Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mz_Whiplash said: I personally, feel.. this is just a situation that has fueled many aspects of every dynamic and for what end ?.. I feel as though I have missed something - I haven’t read his previous post. I don’t wish to fuel anything.
Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 19 minutes ago, little_red_92 said: Offense is subjective, i am not offended by the OP but rightly or wrongly feel that the view points of many submissive have been negated, ignored, or straight up dismissed. Granted the OP asked for Dominant views but on a subject that affects submissive people it is perhaps imperative to have both view points. by opening a thread, you enter into a willing position to receive feedback from those that agree or disagree with you point of view. the OP has had many comments that gave justification as to why his opinion was hypocritical, narrow minded or ignorant. Arguably it is his choice to take in any of the information and opinions he receives. unfortunately due to reading the responses and the previous post the OP made i was able to make inferences towards a mentality that he further perpetuates. this is not ok with me, and as a woman, as submissive and a daughter is it not viable that someone asking about a daughter being a female submissive should perhaps listen to mine and the other views expressed here. Interestingly as one of the first to comment on this topic, you described your wish to not comment on this topic very clearly. why now do you feel the need to call me out? did my viewpoint offend you ? FWIW I do agree that he is being hypocritical but I think he has acknowledged that.
Mz_Whiplash Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 maybe conclusion .. or maybe an end.. or is anyone one for us going to understand the insight of this person .. tbf... ? and are we just giving .. much needed light to a .. shadow place another human maybe in ?..
Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 Just now, Curvykate said: FWIW I do agree that he is being hypocritical but I think he has acknowledged that. i dont feel acknowledging hypocrisy and continuing to argue the point is healthy. if he knows what he is saying is hypocritical then why should he not assess his thought process and really did deep. Just now, Curvykate said: . I guess I don’t like seeing a pile-on. 🤷🏻♀️ i don't feel i'm piling anything on, more over attempting to have a balanced discussion rather than have the same points thrown back each time. You may disagree, both points have merit as we each have our own opinion. i would be very interested to discuss your view on the original thread if you were willing. i know it is a difficult concept to think on.
Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 Just now, Mz_Whiplash said: maybe conclusion .. or maybe an end.. or is anyone one for us going to understand the insight of this person .. tbf... ? and are we just giving .. much needed light to a .. shadow place another human maybe in ?.. Earlier you asked us not to talk about this topic in the lobby chat room, we followed that request and no further discussion was held. why now is it necessary to try to stem the flow of discussion on the original thread? the whole purpose of a forum thread is open discussion, surely this is the correct location to hold it.
Mz_Whiplash Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 To be very clear I am totally lost to the objective at this point.. what is the objective ? @little_red_92
Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 9 minutes ago, little_red_92 said: i don't feel i'm piling anything on, more over attempting to have a balanced discussion rather than have the same points thrown back each time. You may disagree, both points have merit as we each have our own opinion. i would be very interested to discuss your view on the original thread if you were willing. i know it is a difficult concept to think on. I have missed the other post he made which I think might help me understand what’s happening with this topic. I don’t know. Pile-on was the wrong word. I’m following the discussion because I want to learn more. But yes, I am finding it a very difficult concept to think about. It seems like I’m sitting on the fence. But I have agreed with most of what you and other subs have said and what doms have said in defence of subs. I’m just not able to think about it in terms of MY daughter at present.
Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 Just now, Curvykate said: I’m just not able to think about it in terms of MY daughter at present. i respect your acknowledgment of this. it IS a hard topic to think about, i am not a mother but i know i would struggle to face it without deep thought and self reflection. the OPs first post ( a couple of weeks ago) is well worth reading as it clearly displays his only experience of the lifestyle and having a sub. personally i feel this justifiably skews his perception, but his narrative towards women and submissives in this post, is condescending, worrying and scary for someone claiming dominance
Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 6 minutes ago, little_red_92 said: i respect your acknowledgment of this. it IS a hard topic to think about, i am not a mother but i know i would struggle to face it without deep thought and self reflection. the OPs first post ( a couple of weeks ago) is well worth reading as it clearly displays his only experience of the lifestyle and having a sub. personally i feel this justifiably skews his perception, but his narrative towards women and submissives in this post, is condescending, worrying and scary for someone claiming dominance I did look for it but couldn’t find it on the app. I will try again (but when I’ve slept!). He’s denied those perceptions on this post a few times but I can see now why you’re dubious. The topic is something I’m sure I will spend time thinking about in the future. I’ve hit a block about it in terms of my daughter but that’s likely because she’s very *** right now.
Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 Just now, Curvykate said: I did look for it but couldn’t find it on the app. I will try again (but when I’ve slept!). He’s denied those perceptions on this post a few times but I can see now why you’re dubious. The topic is something I’m sure I will spend time thinking about in the future. I’ve hit a block about it in terms of my daughter but that’s likely because she’s very *** right now. Difficult to find on the app, if not impossible i assume. denying a perception and then continuing to cement them kind of contradict one another, i may be seeing ghosts but i reserve my right to be sceptical. i can not comment on vulnerability only that im sure as a mother you would be doing the best for her and not your own notions of things.
foreducatio Posted June 26, 2020 Author Posted June 26, 2020 6 hours ago, TJ_Pup said: So you want her to know that she is valuable and be an individual but her wanting to be valued and an individual goes against all that you are teaching her? Why do you feel that submissives are not valuable? Or an individual? What about this lifestyle makes you think that? Have you actually done any research into this lifestyle? Also... Has your daughter openly expressed her wants to be involved in this lifestyle? I find it very strange that for someone very inexperienced in this lifestyle (yourself) to have such a strong and wrong opinion on what a submissive actually is... I reckon the best way to help yourself would be to do some research into the lifestyle and perhaps try and learn a little bit about submissives before making assumptions - it's just insulting. In my opinion... You should allow your *** to become who they want to be and not tell them they are no longer valuable if they happen to choose a submissives journey. You of all people, as a parent... Should be encouraging your *** and not indirectly belittling them and others who may be and probably are like them... ☺ I really like your points TJ_Pup People keep asking me if I do not value my sub and if I think it is possible. I never stated that. I said it goes against teaching her that she is valuable REGARDLESS OF WHAT OTHERS THINK. I am not saying I do not value subs or that they are not valuable. I value them and think they are valuable. I want to teach my daughter a philosophy that I teach myself. Value has no correlation or attachment to another individual. I don't seek to be valued. I do not think you should ever derive true value from anyone. True value comes from within. Neither by my sub, nor by anyone at all. I have no such void to fill. I came into the world alone and might very well leave alone. I have strong feelings for my sub. I really do love her. My mind is filled with thoughts of how to make her better and make her happy. I understand her need to feel valued and try my hardest to fill that need. As for myself. I see her and love her just out of my own raw desire for her. Does her valuing of me make me feel good? Yes, but I could live alone and be contempt. Luckily, I see her and having her as mine is far more preferable, so I take the sweeter route. I don't need her but you can bet I want her and crave her in every way. Self contentment is a hard psychological concept to grasp but it is solemn and humbling. Knowing your place in this world makes you invincible and unbreakable, yet humble. You are not tied to anyone and your value can never be ***ed. Your actions become purely out of desire and admiration, not a need to feel valued. I live with the realities of whether my child may or may not get ***d, whether their spirit falls to shambles in the event they invest in some fleeting emotion or relationship. I do not live expecting the best. In fact, I expect the worst and merely hope for the best. I am never caught off guard or at least never dealt a blow that knocks me completely to the ground maybe a shock back and some disorientation but I remain level and get back in the game. This is my goal as a father; to teach my girl to be that and nothing less. There should be no need of a Dom/vanilla partner (Shocking, I know). No need for feelings of value from others. They should learn to appreciate and love others and definitely to reciprocate love but never truly need another. No need to feel like you must please anyone, Dom or sub. Many people speak about filling a void. I am sorry but relationships, while sometimes do fill voids leaves you *** and exposed and you are at their mercy. And we know this is true in BDSM, that is why we focus on never pushing limits and giving aftercare because WE ALL KNOW this could really fuck someone in the head. WE KNOW, so pretending would be the same hypocrisy you see in the vanilla society. Someone is going to say "well that's what subs like and that shows strength" well are you now implying that Doms do not have this type of strength? Why do they see no need to display it? In fact, they live entire lives of Domination (I plan to live an entire life of Domination) and never once need to display it and their growth is fine? A common explanation and strangely, it usually only casts women in this explanation is that a sub has a stressful job(s)/life and wish to become free from the cares of the world and have a cathartic experience. So, all the Male Doms out there with high level/stress jobs don't need to feel free too and have a cathartic experience? I accept our lifestyle for what it is. I don't need all the politically correct sugarcoating. However, there should be self contentment for everyone. I get it, that isn't where all of us are and some people need a Dom/sub but "Worthless slut" shouldn't have an effective feel to her one bit. Negative or positive. She couldn't care less what you thought. Doesn't mean she may not fall but that is what I want. Ultimately, she can do as she wishes. Yes, I agree, I'd rather her be honest with me and tell me she wishes for this rather than hide but a sub is not my first choice at all. Shit, she can be anything, literally the worst possible thing, a ***er or whatever. These things too I am prepared for. I hope and work towards the best but I expect anything.
foreducatio Posted June 26, 2020 Author Posted June 26, 2020 36 minutes ago, little_red_92 said: i respect your acknowledgment of this. it IS a hard topic to think about, i am not a mother but i know i would struggle to face it without deep thought and self reflection. the OPs first post ( a couple of weeks ago) is well worth reading as it clearly displays his only experience of the lifestyle and having a sub. personally i feel this justifiably skews his perception, but his narrative towards women and submissives in this post, is condescending, worrying and scary for someone claiming dominance little_red_92 I am not a believer in dogma or tradition and I am very apt to call something as I see it. You want to reference my previous post/newness as a means by which to dismiss my arguments based on your emotional responses. Despite, even to this point me never having disrespected or dismissed you. Unfortunately, there is fallacy in logic called ad hominem attacks. This is where, you bypass the points/position of someone who you disagree with and seek to attack their personality and in so doing feel like you addressed their point. But yes please I encourage not only you but everyone else to reread my previous post. All you see is a Dom seeking out the appropriate thing to do for his sub based on the principles I have learned here and in the BDSM community as a whole. You see my desire for safe words, safety, respect. I merely disagree on a philosophical level about what we are truly doing. What is scary about someone who believes in consent, safety and limits? In fact, what is scary about someone who believes that these things should be even more emphasized? You are upset because of my philosophical points. I have no desire to *** or do anything outside the scope of a gentlemanly Dom, so if you now wish to address my actual points instead of attacking my character, then I think we might have a true discussion or exchange of ideas. I am truly open and desirous of the latter.
foreducatio Posted June 26, 2020 Author Posted June 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Mz_Whiplash said: I personally, feel.. this is just a situation that has fueled many aspects of every dynamic and for what end ?.. Mz_Whiplash I think life can truly be an interesting experience. I think my discussion ended up veering off towards deeper questions about the human experience. Wasn't my intent but it happened. I was just asking what others thought and I responded and it sort of took a dive into some unknown territory.
Deleted Member Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 Just now, foreducatio said: little_red_92 I am not a believer in dogma or tradition - and yet you fall to the tradition of "men are dominant, women are submissive" and I am very apt to call something as I see it. You want to reference my previous post/newness as a means by which to dismiss my arguments based on your emotional responses. But yes please I encourage not only you but everyone else to reread my previous post. All you see is a Dom seeking out the appropriate thing to do for his sub based on the principles I have learned here and in the BDSM community as a whole. You see my desire for safe words, safety, respect. I merely disagree on a philosophical level about what we are truly doing. What is scary about someone who believes in consent, safety and limits? In fact, what is scary about someone who believes that these things should be even more emphasized? - i have read your previous post and would have commended you on that post alone, until this one, it showed a new person willing to learn and discuss difficulty you were having with a submissive woman who suffered *** and continued to perpetuate a cycle within your own dynamic. again i commend this mindset and willingness to do right by someone you care about. There are many different ways people join this lifestyle, your introduction to it is by no means unique and neither is mine. I suppose the difference being that from your previous post you inferred you had not sought out this world alone by your own interest but that of trying to appease the wishes of a girlfriend. for you Dominance or submission may be a choice or a role to play in the bedroom, out of it whatever. it is a hat you put on and enjoy its fit until you take it off and resume normal vanilla life. I am a submissive to my core. nothing gives me more power, emotional strength and pleasure then willingly submitting to my Sir, he has earnt my respect, my love and my compassion but i do not need him. i am my own person, i have my own thoughts and feelings and yes, whilst i may have focused my power on my Dominant, he damn well earned the right to call me his submissive. i am not damaged or faulty and i do not submit due to past *** or emotional trauma it is who i am. Despite, even to this point me never having disrespected or dismissed you. Unfortunately, there is fallacy in logic called ad hominem attacks. This is where, you bypass the points/position of someone who you disagree with and seek to attack their personality and in so doing feel like you addressed their point. - i may have fallen fowl of doing this, and so i apologise . unfortunately you hit a raw nerve of mine, acceptance or lack thereof. in your earlier comments you stated that you would be unhappy if your daughter became a sub but more than happy if she were to be a Domme. unfortunately you have no control of this as it is part of who you are, not always just a role to play. your narrative around that individual point was dismissive of the value that submission holds to each persons sense of self. I am a submissive so felt dismissed. You are upset because of my philosophical points. I have no desire to *** or do anything outside the scope of a gentlemanly Dom, so if you now wish to address my actual points instead of attacking my character, then I think we might have a true discussion or exchange of ideas. I am truly open and desirous of the latter. I have addressed each point as i have seen it above with some collection editing to consolidate theory.
Th**** Posted June 26, 2020 Posted June 26, 2020 8 hours ago, foreducatio said: Also, I will repeat what I have mentioned before. Idealism, is a great concept in theory but reality trumps all things. I love BDSM and practice it, but I do not need to put down vanilla society in order to validate my choices. Before BDSM and vanilla relationships, God said let there be human nature. *** is rampant wherever you go. If it wasn't we wouldn't have all these articles and discussions about red flags and fake Doms and abusive subs. I think as good humans we should just oppose *** regardless of whether it is BDSM or vanilla. Characterizing vanilla society as boring/pretentious/*** ridden and BDSM as exciting/honest/*** free is just a false dichotomy. BDSM and vanilla are just two sides to the same coin of human relationships. Neither are special and both can result in being extremely fulfilling and rewarding or empty, monotonous and vapid. Let us start on a positive note. Here we totally agree, We who have a BDSM lifestyle are not special. I am after all just a man like any other. 8 hours ago, foreducatio said: Leisa let us not become dogmatic like the vanilla world we are trying to escape. Not everyone wishes to be a lifestyle sub. Some just want to play a role during a scene, sexually or not. This is still valid and consensual BDSM. You cannot expect everyone to share your flavor of submission. Most things in life are learned, so yes you do learn how to be a sub. You didn't come out of the womb thinking "Imma sub. Imma sub." This is only a small tip. You may not want to tell other people who they are. Trust me, been there, done that, and it never ends well. It the road someone else has trodden when we have not walked it. 8 hours ago, foreducatio said: Leisa, you have had an excellent experience in BDSM and the love and intimacy you speak of sounds great. However, you are lucky as are all the other subs who get Doms like yours because some come with the same level of submission that you have to a Dom who doesn't give a rat's ass. I am very suspicious of the world and the people in it, BDSM or vanilla and giving yourself up in that way and being that *** should not be given away very easily or just to anyone. In the hands of a good Dom. Things are fine but what about when you have given every ounce of yourself and he never loved you? Then what? That level of devastation to me sounds far worse than a little vanilla breakup. 1. The interesting mitigating factors that I believe have given Leisa that good experience are not luck. She is an alpha/ a natural leader, she's intelligent, empowered, and yes she could kick my ass if she wanted. This means she can deploy those skills when selecting a Dominant, she may be a submissive with me but with anyone else she is so very strong. I am honoured to hold her collar. Your daughter you want to be empowered, intelligent, a leader, strong, independent and able to say "Fuck You" if someone treats her wrong ..right? Other than with me that would describe Leisa. We are not so very different it is just different things that make us happy. I could keep on going but there is little point. I will instead tell you about a man who is remembered for being the organisational mind behind one of the UK's top 4 banks, and organising their merger with Midland Montagu Leasing and Forward Trust. He had headed the team that changed over the banks to becoming computerised from manual books. He eventually retired at 50 at Director level. Well that was my Father and a later found out he had kept the fact he was a submissive very private. Submissives are powerful in the real world as well. Never under estimate them. Never think them weak. And from me personally please, if your daughter does tell you she is a submissive educate her so she can see through wannabe Doms, let her where to find support, help your little girl make the good choices in whatever life she chooses. No matter how scared you are she will do it anyway. Let her walk that life with your wisdom and support, knowing she can turn to you if needed.
foreducatio Posted June 27, 2020 Author Posted June 27, 2020 1 hour ago, phoenyx said: I suspect that the answer to this question, comes down to the specific situation. What is the style and quality of the Dom (or even Domina) that the daughter brings home? I'm certain that most parents here, have enough "Scene" experience, to make that judgement. It appears to have been forgotten, that the best D-types, typically started-out as S-types. It was how they gained empathy. Even professional dominance training begins with being trained as a slave. That slave training may last just a week, or even, only a couple days. Still, it is pretty intense. But then, I may be "old school" in that respect. Of course, a parent must also consider their daughter's approach to submission. As a Dom, I have a hard and fast rule along that line. More than once, I have stated plainly: "You must prove that you can serve yourself, before I deem you worthy to serve me." That means having one's own life, and one's own means of support. I am not a "lifer"; never have been (that 24/7 thing). Nor, am I a "Sugar Daddy". Still, a potential sub or slave is offering a large portion of their life to me. I wish to share in that life, and grow from it, just as they do. I even admire dominant traits, and I almost always encourage them. This may even lead to eventual dominance training, if the slave wishes to take that next step. I enjoy watching them grow. Sure, this could lead to an inevitable parting of the ways. But, we would be parting as lifelong friends. Still, there are those Doms, whose behavior appears totally reprehensible. We have all encountered these types. They believe that the only true sub, is one that is weak and naïve. Such a slave must unconditionally submit to whatever *** is hurled their way. Any statement counter to these views, either from a sub or from another Dom, is seen as a personal attack. These "Doms" react with anger, insults, and claims that their way is "the only true BDSM". They are every parent's worst nightmare. Yet, too often, they appear to be in the majority, simply because they shout louder and longer than everyone else. All in all, I hope that this provides some clarity to this question. There is no simple, universal answer. It is just like the rest of life---each step must be taken as it comes. When sitting with a child, discussing "The Birds and the Bees", just how do you respond to the question: "But, where do the whips and leather come in?" Phoenyx I found this very insightful. Perhaps, you are correct. I am not so against the idea of my daughter trying to submit to A Dom who sees her as his light in the dark sky. Shit, if he would do anything for her, then her gratitude isn't exactly unfounded. I just do not think that light in the dark sky is usually the prerequisite for assuming a Dom. In fact, there may be no love at all from the Dom. We all know this. Phoenyx, I know you aren't a lifer. However, people are acting that becoming a slave/sub to a Master/24/7 Dom is not a real life changing event and we can pretend all we want that it isn't. Some Doms make sure their subs eat healthy, exercise, learn a new instrument, go to school, practice anxiety control etc. This is amazing but who here believes that A Dom or Master must do these things as a Prerequisite or be even remotely interested in such development? Love isn't even a prerequisite. After 10 years of service of displaying your submission, cleaning your Dom's house, kissing his/her feet being a fucktoy on request. I mean what have you gained? People keep talking about all they have learned and gained just by means of BDSM. What have you learned? How far your body can go? You could and probably should do that in the gym or join the military or try climbing a mountain, but still to what end? See that communication, honesty and boundaries are important? Reading and self development or parental influence could/should teach you that depending on your view. In fact you should know this before you dive into any relationship. Period. Affection and feelings of ownership? I understand this one. Your Dom gives you aftercare, and you ***stakingly follow the rules and be a good slave. However, these things you have done have real material and legitimate benefit/advantage to your Master. He may put his feet up and study and go on to become a large business owner. This is a real benefit. Not to say there aren't successful subs. Many, if not most are. However, not every sub is successful and not every Master is trying to give that real life development but honestly is that a prerequisite now to be successful or have your life together to be a sub. BDSM would not be as inclusive as we claim then. In the cases of such subs/slaves who are not blessed with steady jobs and great income they have gained nothing but feelings of value and affection. There is nothing back. Again we can play games but the reality exists and people shouldn't turn a blind eye to the multiple realities of our life and human nature in general.
foreducatio Posted June 27, 2020 Author Posted June 27, 2020 2 hours ago, Leisa said: Foreducatio you have so much to learn about women, submissives, and Dominates in general. To refer to women as the weaker sex is insulting and degrading to not just myself and other subs but to your own daughter. Having served in the military and having gone through hand to hand combat training there are quite a few men who I could put on their ass if I so desired. Being physically weaker does not equate to a lessor women. The only thing you may have meant was that subs are mentally strong. Physical strength in a person fades while mental strength continues to grow. You say you want your child(ren) to be the dominant in the relationship. As the weaker vessel does that not put your daughter equally at risk of being injured or hurt? After all she will be dealing with a submissive who could be physically stronger than she is. Let’s move on to your claim that anyone can be trained to be something or someone they’re not. First you need to read up on the Pavlov’s dog theory you kind of have it wrong and go by the understanding of society instead of the reason behind the study in the first place. Such is irrelevant. You cannot “train” someone to be something other than who and what they are. You cannot take a submissive, male or female, and turn them into a dominant personality any more than you can take a dominant personality and turn it submissive. But wait you don’t want to make your daughter into a submissive just everyone else’s daughter. By your reasoning your daughter is to naturally be a submissive and would have to be “trained” to be something other than who she was meant to be. It makes one wonder, if your child was a member of the LBGTQ+ would you try to train them to be straight. According to your own words you can train anyone to fit into any stereotype simply to fit what you deem acceptable. I keep trying to come up with even one point you make to be on your side as a parent but I simply cannot. Your views are so misguided as to reflect poorly upon a community you want to become part of. I understand you’re extremely new and green to the whys and what fors of this lifestyle but maybe this lifestyle just isn’t for you. Aren’t you supposed to be setting the example for your ***? If this is the example you’re setting you are doing not just my community a disservice but your *** also. My advice is this — regardless of whatever your *** want to be, regardless of the lifestyle they live, accept them as people, accept them as individuals who know their own mind and are strong because they do. Anything less does a great disservice to them as individuals who you’ve raised to be strong of mind and will. Leisa, you have made some salient points. I think some clarification would help. I do not believe that women are the weaker sex. If I did, then how would I want my daughter to be Dominant? I do not believe this. What I think is that society teaches women to adopt submissive roles and seek Dominant men. It's in every movie. You see it in vanilla relationships and you sure as hell see it in BDSM. I am sure your Dom is not submissive. I just read your Dom's post by the way. You two seem very nice. Anyhow, the majority of subs in BDSM are women. That is a statistical fact and not coincidental. In fact, the trend is growing because of BDSMs gaining popularity. In some way this has changed but for the most part it is still Dominant men and submissive women. I understand that Pavlov's theory is based primarily on biological stimuli and would not be applied to social conditioning exactly. I was just saying that in the same way that Dogs can be conditioned, so too can the individual be conditioned by society. This is what I meant to say. This is what explains an entire country such as Germany believing in the Third Reich. Rhetoric, propaganda and ultimately, social conditioning. This is also what explains the phenomena of Highly successful women particularly seeking out Dominant men in their private lives be it in BDSM or vanilla. You don't see highly successful men seeking out dominant women on any sweeping scale. Yes it happens but it is not the norm. The opposite is true. Such hardline definitions of human behavior explaining Dominance and submission by ascribing them to naturalistic tendencies eventually start breaking down upon closer inspection and the lack of scientific support. 1. If Dominance and submission were natural tendencies then you wouldn't be Dominant in the real world but submissive only in your private life. 2. Comparing, Dominance and submission to LGBQT is a false analogy. There is genuine scientific support that proves these things are naturally developed. No science has shown the biological origin of Submission and Dominance in the brain. 3. Dominance and submission seem to be based on certain traits in the *** kingdom such as physical strength, aggression or combat skills. Our concept of Dominance is more psychological. For example, you could whoop your Doms ass. Based on Biology, you would be the Dominant one but you're not. All of this points to a more fluid concept of being Dominant or submissive and what causes it. This is entirely different from what feels natural and good to you, social conditioning is one of the explaining factors. So to answer your question. No. If my child was LGBTQ I cannot change nature but in Dominance and submission I can change nurture. The difference between many here and myself is that I accept the influence society has had upon me and how it influences me. I do not try sugarcoating or making politically correct statements. I call a thing what it is and own up to it. Most women are conditioned to be submissive and most men are conditioned to be Dominant. This has contributed to who I am and have become and that's ok. Another point I wanted to make clear was that weakness does not equate to inferiority. I used as an example, men who were physically stronger than I am or more than many Doms here, doesn't lead to the conclusion that we are inferior. Just physically weaker and that is a fact. No need to pretend. Some men have more power than others in society but it doesn't mean the most powerful is superior to the one with less. So I don't subscribe to that notion. Leisa, I am green but the explanations can only go so far. There is always an underlying notion beneath something. I think i as well as most people here have an underlying philosophy. I think we just don't wish to call it what it is. For example, how many vanilla people would not be receptive to me saying that their relationships are based on power dynamics as well. There has to be someone more dominant in any relationship, or sometimes they switch and delegate duties. Power, Dominance and submission is at the core of all human relations. Denying it is only hiding from our brutal reality.
foreducatio Posted June 27, 2020 Author Posted June 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Thebian said: Let us start on a positive note. Here we totally agree, We who have a BDSM lifestyle are not special. I am after all just a man like any other. This is only a small tip. You may not want to tell other people who they are. Trust me, been there, done that, and it never ends well. It the road someone else has trodden when we have not walked it. 1. The interesting mitigating factors that I believe have given Leisa that good experience are not luck. She is an alpha/ a natural leader, she's intelligent, empowered, and yes she could kick my ass if she wanted. This means she can deploy those skills when selecting a Dominant, she may be a submissive with me but with anyone else she is so very strong. I am honoured to hold her collar. Your daughter you want to be empowered, intelligent, a leader, strong, independent and able to say "Fuck You" if someone treats her wrong ..right? Other than with me that would describe Leisa. We are not so very different it is just different things that make us happy. I could keep on going but there is little point. I will instead tell you about a man who is remembered for being the organisational mind behind one of the UK's top 4 banks, and organising their merger with Midland Montagu Leasing and Forward Trust. He had headed the team that changed over the banks to becoming computerised from manual books. He eventually retired at 50 at Director level. Well that was my Father and a later found out he had kept the fact he was a submissive very private. Submissives are powerful in the real world as well. Never under estimate them. Never think them weak. And from me personally please, if your daughter does tell you she is a submissive educate her so she can see through wannabe Doms, let her where to find support, help your little girl make the good choices in whatever life she chooses. No matter how scared you are she will do it anyway. Let her walk that life with your wisdom and support, knowing she can turn to you if needed. Thebian I appreciate the cordial tone and accept that we are not special. I agree that telling people who they are is usually fraught with problems. However, let us look at this from a different angle. We talk a lot about submissives who are leaders in the real world such as Leisa but do you think all these subs are Leisa's? How many subs can actually kick their Dom's ass? Some subs are submissive 24/7 period. At home and at work and in life. This is who they are, but no one would say yes that's just her personality and leave her. We think that added dominance would do far better and would encourage this. I think I agree on most things you say here bud. I think everyone feels like I am saying I am going to say to hell with my daughter if she becomes a sub or that she could never turn to me to talk. Lets set the record straight. She should come to me with everything. In the same way I can cordially disagree and discourage here. I can cordially disagree and discourage my daughter. Doesn't mean anything else. I am entitled to do that. I love the story of your Dad because everyone keeps talking that I think subs are not strong in the real world. I think they are strong. Not all of them are, which sometimes I think everyone is forgetting. Not every sub is this riveting powerhouse of strength. Also, strength in the gym does not equate to strength as a parent. Strength as a parent does not equate to strength as a boss. People miss that. You can be strong in some things and be weak in your relationship and that is the whole point of BDSM. Doms want that weakness and submission and subs want the opposite. I just accept that for what it is and know I like it. There is nothing empowering about it. This is like saying that in vanilla society kissing a woman's leg or eating her out is empowering. No it isn't. It's simply a human expression of sex and relationship. That is good enough for me. 🤷♂️
Phoenyx Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 48 minutes ago, foreducatio said: However, people are acting that becoming a slave/sub to a Master/24/7 Dom is not a real life changing event and we can pretend all we want that it isn't On 24/7, don't forget the very real risk of burnout. The effects of burnout can be far worse than years in a fruitless relationship---including PTSD, Depression, Manic Disorders, Eating Disorders, etc. Luckily, most cases of burnout simply result in a loss of interest. Still, it can be like Russian Roulette. 10 years? In the case of burnout, more like 10 months. Or, as little as 10 weeks. That is why I take the approach that I do. But then, I deal with older women. So, the dynamics are far different. I presume, that this discussion was meant to be, about what to tell your daughter, should she begin to show an interest in BDSM. May I suggest, something similar to what you just told me. Don't try to discourage. Don't try to encourage. Just lay-out the facts, and hope that she listens. I am assuming that this discussion would be with an adult daughter. So, legally, she would be free to do as she pleases. You know how young folks are. We did the same, at that age. With luck, she will heed your advice. But, if she doesn't, you will need to be there for her, if/when the relationship goes south. You will need to be her rock, while she tries to regain her bearings. 10 years? 4 or 5, at the most. More likely, 1 or 2. But, whatever you do, never say, "I told you so!" That could be the most hurtful, damaging thing possible. Of course, there is always the hope, that she finds the right person, on the first try. Now, I hate to say this about my own kind, but, try to keep her from getting involved with a "professional" (unless it is on a purely professional basis). Acting (non-retired) professionals are heartbreakers---I know.
Leisa Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 2 hours ago, foreducatio said: Leisa, you have made some salient points. I think some clarification would help. I do not believe that women are the weaker sex. If I did, then how would I want my daughter to be Dominant? I do not believe this. What I think is that society teaches women to adopt submissive roles and seek Dominant men. It's in every movie. You see it in vanilla relationships and you sure as hell see it in BDSM. I am sure your Dom is not submissive. I just read your Dom's post by the way. You two seem very nice. Anyhow, the majority of subs in BDSM are women. That is a statistical fact and not coincidental. In fact, the trend is growing because of BDSMs gaining popularity. In some way this has changed but for the most part it is still Dominant men and submissive women. I understand that Pavlov's theory is based primarily on biological stimuli and would not be applied to social conditioning exactly. I was just saying that in the same way that Dogs can be conditioned, so too can the individual be conditioned by society. This is what I meant to say. This is what explains an entire country such as Germany believing in the Third Reich. Rhetoric, propaganda and ultimately, social conditioning. This is also what explains the phenomena of Highly successful women particularly seeking out Dominant men in their private lives be it in BDSM or vanilla. You don't see highly successful men seeking out dominant women on any sweeping scale. Yes it happens but it is not the norm. The opposite is true. Such hardline definitions of human behavior explaining Dominance and submission by ascribing them to naturalistic tendencies eventually start breaking down upon closer inspection and the lack of scientific support. 1. If Dominance and submission were natural tendencies then you wouldn't be Dominant in the real world but submissive only in your private life. 2. Comparing, Dominance and submission to LGBQT is a false analogy. There is genuine scientific support that proves these things are naturally developed. No science has shown the biological origin of Submission and Dominance in the brain. 3. Dominance and submission seem to be based on certain traits in the *** kingdom such as physical strength, aggression or combat skills. Our concept of Dominance is more psychological. For example, you could whoop your Doms ass. Based on Biology, you would be the Dominant one but you're not. All of this points to a more fluid concept of being Dominant or submissive and what causes it. This is entirely different from what feels natural and good to you, social conditioning is one of the explaining factors. So to answer your question. No. If my child was LGBTQ I cannot change nature but in Dominance and submission I can change nurture. The difference between many here and myself is that I accept the influence society has had upon me and how it influences me. I do not try sugarcoating or making politically correct statements. I call a thing what it is and own up to it. Most women are conditioned to be submissive and most men are conditioned to be Dominant. This has contributed to who I am and have become and that's ok. Another point I wanted to make clear was that weakness does not equate to inferiority. I used as an example, men who were physically stronger than I am or more than many Doms here, doesn't lead to the conclusion that we are inferior. Just physically weaker and that is a fact. No need to pretend. Some men have more power than others in society but it doesn't mean the most powerful is superior to the one with less. So I don't subscribe to that notion. Leisa, I am green but the explanations can only go so far. There is always an underlying notion beneath something. I think i as well as most people here have an underlying philosophy. I think we just don't wish to call it what it is. For example, how many vanilla people would not be receptive to me saying that their relationships are based on power dynamics as well. There has to be someone more dominant in any relationship, or sometimes they switch and delegate duties. Power, Dominance and submission is at the core of all human relations. Denying it is only hiding from our brutal reality. Foreducatio while we will obviously not agree on a number of things what I think we can agree on is that being a submissive does not in anyway imply weak or less than. We can agree that parenting is different for every parent and our goal is to raise our *** to be the best they can be regardless of what anyone else may think. My only hope is that I helped open your eyes as to what a submissive can be. She can be strong in many regards and if your daughter decides that submission is what she was to choose I can only hope that you teach her that she to can be strong regardless of which role she chooses to live. May you be blessed in raising your daughter to be the best she can be regardless of her choices in life.
Ta**** Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Donnykinkster said: Thank you but your a dom yes so that's going to mean you seek a submissive. That submissive is someone's daughter so i believe you have some thinking to do. I understand it's a difficult subject and when I saw it posted last night I knew it would garner some serious debate. Yes that's right. I am a Sub but I am also somebody's daughter, ***, aunt, mother. Surely my life and my right to choose is as valid as the next Sub, no matter who's daughter she is . Edited June 27, 2020 by TammyNatalia To add another point to the argument....
Ta**** Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 8 hours ago, foreducatio said: Yes, I agree, I'd rather her be honest with me and tell me she wishes for this rather than hide but a sub is not my first choice at all. Shit, she can be anything, literally the worst possible thing, a ***er or whatever.. I perfectly understand your need to protect your daughter from *** by others, and so you *** that she may want to become a sub because this may open her up to being physically and emotionally ***d!? Firstly, I don't think this is true at all, and secondly it is beginning to sound a bit like discrimination against Submissive women, for daring to want to be serviced rather than wanting to serve!. Hell, we have enough Dom women on the scene servicing the needs of men. So I am very glad of the presence of Submissive women, and I wish there were more! It doesn't sound as if you like Sub women very much, even though I understand you have a Sub of your own who you say you love. I don't doubt this! But all this sounds like a very old fashioned view of women, that when it comes to sex, they are only there to give rather than to receive. And let's face it, at the end of the day, a Dom has no real power. Dominant women (or men) are servers, (if not more so), than the Submissive, be it man or woman. Some of the strongest women I have met on the scene have been Subs, and they know their own minds and know what they want. And I don't understand why you think it would be better for your daughter to be a ***er rather than a Sub. For me, that merely sums up your whole attitude towards Subs and that's deeply offensive. Also let's not forget, your daughter is not immune to being ***d in vanilla society. In fact *** is rife within vanilla relationships, maybe much more so than within Kink society as a whole. And in the end anyone can end up being ***d, regardless of their role as either a Dom or Sub (or switch).
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