Naivety and those who take advantage.

[Deleted Member]

Are some a little naive, both D and s?

 

I think some be they any gender or whichever side of the slash you sit on are a little Naive at times to what others really want and what their true intentions actually are.

 

So a female sub friend and I were talking recently and she told me a story about a male Dom friend who wanted to meet. This lady is already in a relationship and made it quite clear that she would be happy to meet as friends but only as friends, for a coffee sort of situation. Now the Dom told her if there was not more on offer then their friendship was over so what does that say about him? I think we already know the answer yet she seemed quite surprised by his reaction. For me she's naive as I tried to explain and for the record I believe this naivety can happen just as much for both sides of the slash especially when relatively young, not so much life experience etc.

 

From life experience only I have seen similar situations many times in the past, people paying lip service, saying words they feel the other may want to hear with a darker hidden motive that is only revealed later down the line once a little has been invested in the "friendship." This for me can happen to us all, be it kink or vanilla and the best guard against behaviour such as this is in my opinion again life experience. So many wear a mask that hides the true intention and also a person's true character. It's so easy to say one thing yet really in time be seeking another, for me I would call it a form of grooming and again it can happen to all especially when young.

 

Vanilla folk may go out round town with their pals, meet a great person who seems above board and everything they ever wanted, go home together that night for some raunchy fun yet the next morning the bloke usually in the cold light of day will be breaking his back to get away. It's easy to say the words, whisper sweet nothings to another to reach the end goal yet once that goal has been reached lose interest. Who's fault is that? Is there any one to blame as such? Or is it possible it could just be naivety playing a part?

 

A Sub male can be drawn in so easily from what I've seen by so called "Dommes" who require payment blah blah blah before she will go any further and upon receipt of "tribute" be it or gift cards disappear never to be seen again. Is that the subs fault or is it naivety? I think every time I would go with naivety.

 

A sub lass can have male friends, of course she can but can she ever be sure that those males intentions are as innocent as made out? No not at all unless they have been friends for many years. We i think at some point in our lives have all been taken in, fooled if you like when words and actions don't add up. When lies and deceit are told how are we to know they are lies and deceit? The simple answer is we don't but life does as you age give you better ability to spot those whose intentions are not as they seem.

 

I think from what I know now and from what I've seen unless you have known another for a long time, have maybe met even face to face we should always guard against our own naivety but that's especially hard when you don't even see how naive you actually are 😊.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Deleted Member
Better choice of words

[typhoon2]

The most unfortunate part of these hidden intentions is that unless a local scene talks about it and word of the deceiver and their tactics spreads the pattern will be repeated with future naifs/innocents.

[Deleted Member]

2 minutes ago, typhoon2 said:

The most unfortunate part of these hidden intentions is that unless a local scene talks about it and word of the deceiver and their tactics

From talking to friends I think that can be the case, from what I understand more in the live scene, sharing of info etc.. It's much easier to hide online, you can be anything you want. Again though from what I understand a community such as this do talk even online, but maybe not as much as we should. The problem online is once identified and known those who take advantage can dissapear and reappear with a brand new profile and all are none the wiser.

[Nylon-Nellie]

Red flag for me, similar happened to me earlier on in year. Wasn't until it home, how naive I was. Male and female should be able to go for a coffee, nothing more nothing less. But to expect more from a friendship than just a mere coffee, nah (not unless it is agreed upon). This Dom clearly has not listened, thus ending of the friendship if she doesn't take things further than coffee with him.

First time I have come across the wording 'lip service'.

[Deleted Member]

1 minute ago, Nylon-Nellie said:

 This Dom clearly has not listened.

Hi 😊.

I have to politely disagree, I think those like him listen very carefully and know exactly what they are doing. That's the deciet, hidden intentions, they always have an end game planned.

[Nylon-Nellie]

@Donnykinkster point taken 🙂 Food for thought with your post.

[Th****]

2 hours ago, Donnykinkster said:

So a female sub friend and I were talking recently and she told me a story about a male Dom friend who wanted to meet. This lady is already in a relationship and made it quite clear that she would be happy to meet as friends but only as friends, for a coffee sort of situation. Now the Dom told her if there was not more on offer then their friendship was over so what does that say about him? I think we already know the answer yet she seemed quite surprised by his reaction. For me she's naive as I tried to explain and for the record I believe this naivety can happen just as much for both sides of the slash especially when relatively young, not so much life experience etc.

 

Alright, I am getting out the soap box now...     *Drags it over and steps up....Cough*

Although I have passed the stage where this surprises me. I would go as far as to say that that was no Dominant.

He may call himself one certainly. Yes, he certainly communicated clearly based on the description. 

The issue here is consent, not consent to coffee. Dominants in that situation know that they need to not just gain free ongoing consent but not actually manipulate a submissive into a decision with the threat breaking off contact unless things go their way.

Maybe I am just old fashioned, but their is such a thing as honourable behaviour. A Dominant needs to be trustworthy, honourable and Not a dick head.

Now this part is to those who are Dominants, and submissives who are aware of how to behave or how and respect other people. We need to dispel this sort of naivety through constant repetition and education.

Alas for everyone that sees through this there will be others on both sides of the slash who do not. As a community though we can ensure that we highlight this.

*Gets off soap box*

 

[Deleted Member]

I have been enormously naive and fallen for some “dominant” lines time and time again. I’ve been angry on occasion. I think I started growing as a submissive when I started taking responsibility for MY naïveté. Because that’s what I can control.

[ey****]

Naivety is a big problem - and it's not limited to any gender or dynamics.

there are people who masquerade as one dynamic or another to then promise someone unsuspecting what they want

Sometimes the person taking advantage is being deliberately manipulative, or sometimes they've also got it in their head that whatever they're doing is what a Dom/sub/whatever should be (the old "I am the Dom so you do as I say" can be a product of arrogance or inexperience, but if used on a sub who is naive can cause the perfect clusterfuck) 

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

Naivety is a big problem - and it's not limited to any gender or dynamics.

there are people who masquerade as one dynamic or another to then promise someone unsuspecting what they want

Sometimes the person taking advantage is being deliberately manipulative, or sometimes they've also got it in their head that whatever they're doing is what a Dom/sub/whatever should be (the old "I am the Dom so you do as I say" can be a product of arrogance or inexperience, but if used on a sub who is naive can cause the perfect clusterfuck) 

The very first person I interacted with on Fetlife did this. My first taste of d/s. It took over a year to sort out that particular head fuck. Powerful stuff when you’re new. I was so lucky that my second interaction was with someone who recognised my naïveté, protected me and become my first play partner. It does pay to talk to a variety of people, not just those you might be interested in for kink. It’s a great counterpoint to naïveté.

[ey****]

7 minutes ago, Curvykate said:

It does pay to talk to a variety of people, not just those you might be interested in for kink. It’s a great counterpoint to naïveté.

Yep - absolutely.

The advice I always try to give is to "get information from more than one source" this can of course draw from different opinions and expertise - and points where most people agree on you can sway to being "right" and where there's disagreements sometimes it can be context driven (like in CNC it may well be "I am the Dom you do as I say" but only because trust has been built over years) and sometimes it can be ideology driven (say. those who feel women should reply every message)

[Deleted Member]

17 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

Yep - absolutely.

The advice I always try to give is to "get information from more than one source" this can of course draw from different opinions and expertise - and points where most people agree on you can sway to being "right" and where there's disagreements sometimes it can be context driven (like in CNC it may well be "I am the Dom you do as I say" but only because trust has been built over years) and sometimes it can be ideology driven (say. those who feel women should reply every message)

There’s been so much ideology around women and messaging I felt like I wanted to leave the site of late. (I don’t know how to just post a particular part of the quote, sorry). But yes yes to more opinions - I find the 1:1 chats have informed my views more than forums, but either way it’s all good.

[Deleted Member]

Naivety also steps in when people believe every word in the profiles displayed on this website. It appears that some readers don't read the details, nor match the images with the physical information displayed. On nearly every daily visit, and reading through profiles, there can be misleading/scamming profiles; this morning there were four such occurrences. Many of these were over 12 hours old, and had multiple messages either waiting, or there'd been conversations with others. So being cautious, questioning ones self and deciding on reality and if something appears genuine, is very important. As has already been mentioned, anyone can pretend to be whoever like, when online. The images you see can have been ripped from wherever the "profiler" has trawled. Only by asking the right kind of questions and reading the replies, do you begin to form a real "picture" of the person behind the "front". Avoidance in answering should cause alarm bells to ring. I think that naivety can sometimes also come from being too hasty to want to be found, or to be recognised as the character that you portray. A step back, to carefully consider, can save huge amounts of disappointment in your personal belief of yourself.

[Deleted Member]

13 hours ago, Curvykate said:

I have been enormously naive and fallen for some “dominant” lines time and time again.

You are far from alone Kate, I believe there are many of us who have been fooled from time to time. I think another problem and I have done this is that sometimes we want something so much we ignore the warning signs that can be clear as day.  

[Deleted Member]

11 hours ago, Curvykate said:

There’s been so much ideology around women and messaging I felt like I wanted to leave the site of late. (I don’t know how to just post a particular part of the quote, sorry). But yes yes to more opinions - I find the 1:1 chats have informed my views more than forums, but either way it’s all good.

Would you clarify for me please what you mean about ideology. The site would be a poorer place without those like you Kate.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, Leatherfox2010 said:

. I think that naivety can sometimes also come from being too hasty to want to be found, or to be recognised as the character that you portray. 

Totally agree with that. It's something I'm guilty of.

[Deleted Member]

37 minutes ago, Donnykinkster said:

You are far from alone Kate, I believe there are many of us who have been fooled from time to time. I think another problem and I have done this is that sometimes we want something so much we ignore the warning signs that can be clear as day.  

I think the more we know ourselves and what we want, the less likely we are to “fall” for lies. And I totally agree with @Leatherfox2010 that our needs override common sense at times.

[Deleted Member]

39 minutes ago, Donnykinkster said:

Would you clarify for me please what you mean about ideology. The site would be a poorer place without those like you Kate.

Thank you, Donny 🤗 At present, I don’t feel I am contributing much. NRE takes my attention. It was Eyem who referred to ideology first - but what I mean is “rules” about how I should respond, that I “must” respond and what reasons I’m allowed to have for saying no.

[ey****]

I could go way off topic on naivety.

But there's always two states.  How things are (which could be a mixture of things, because nothing is black and white) and how people feel things should be.

The problem is when people who are not getting what they want try to present how they feel things should be as how things are (which is a form of gaslighting in itself)

-

So for example.  Imagine if a guy comes into someone's PMs and he is either a sub demanding the Dominant takes his 'gift' of submission - or a Dominant who is very much "you are a single sub girl - you are mine now" (both of which happen) (and before anyone whataboutism over women demanding *** - they're usually scammers and also preying on naivety, so there we are) 

There was a thread maybe a year or so ago where there was a lady who had been a bit confused because she'd been speaking with a Dominant and he had been very pushy with her boundaries and she had started a thread of "is this normal" - and of course there were lots of people supporting her - but there were of course men who were trying to say "Yes, he is trying to see if you are a real sub or just a pretender" or "Traditionally the sub would do as they were told blah blah" and it was basically them pushing how they think things should be (so they could literally go up to someone and say "you're mine now") rather than how things actually are.

But, if you have someone new, who is cornered, who is very excited about this prospect and wants to do their best - then this is someone taking advantage they don't know better.

[Deleted Member]

28 minutes ago, Curvykate said:

 . It was Eyem who referred to ideology first - but what I mean is “rules” about how I should respond, that I “must” respond and what reasons I’m allowed to have for saying no.

Hmmmm for me you don't need any reason to say no. For me you can say no to anyone. You don't need a reason that you should have to explain to any one at anytime. So called protocol has a lot to answer for at times.

[Deleted Member]

31 minutes ago, Curvykate said:

Thank you, Donny 🤗 At present, I don’t feel I am contributing much. 

You don't need to be "contributing" to be a valued member Kate. It's those like you we need more of, those with a little common sense and an understanding of what fair play is 😊

[Deleted Member]

21 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

 "Yes, he is trying to see if you are a real sub or just a pretender" or "Traditionally the sub would do as they were told blah blah" and it was basically them pushing how they think things should be (so they could literally go up to someone and say "you're mine now") 

Yet submissives for me should only be submissive to the chosen one upon agreement and negotiations. Really winds me up how some view all subs as their subs even on the first message. The rest for me is just pure entitlement which we all know is a scourge of the community.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I could go way off topic on naivety.

But there's always two states.  How things are (which could be a mixture of things, because nothing is black and white) and how people feel things should be.

The problem is when people who are not getting what they want try to present how they feel things should be as how things are (which is a form of gaslighting in itself)

-

So for example.  Imagine if a guy comes into someone's PMs and he is either a sub demanding the Dominant takes his 'gift' of submission - or a Dominant who is very much "you are a single sub girl - you are mine now" (both of which happen) (and before anyone whataboutism over women demanding *** - they're usually scammers and also preying on naivety, so there we are) 

There was a thread maybe a year or so ago where there was a lady who had been a bit confused because she'd been speaking with a Dominant and he had been very pushy with her boundaries and she had started a thread of "is this normal" - and of course there were lots of people supporting her - but there were of course men who were trying to say "Yes, he is trying to see if you are a real sub or just a pretender" or "Traditionally the sub would do as they were told blah blah" and it was basically them pushing how they think things should be (so they could literally go up to someone and say "you're mine now") rather than how things actually are.

But, if you have someone new, who is cornered, who is very excited about this prospect and wants to do their best - then this is someone taking advantage they don't know better.

I think there have been similar scenarios quite recently too. I’ve been told I’m not a real sub several times. Cornered is a very apt word. When you’re driven by your needs and they’re too new and overwhelming for you to see straight - easy for someone to take advantage. 😟

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, Donnykinkster said:

Hmmmm for me you don't need any reason to say no. For me you can say no to anyone. You don't need a reason that you should have to explain to any one at anytime. So called protocol has a lot to answer for at times.

Protocol...or misogyny that some suggest women can’t say no except with specific reasons (such as being owned by a man 🙄) or that they must give all who message a fair trial etc. Ive already got a controlling ex without encountering more attempts at male control here. I guess I react against it quite strongly.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, Donnykinkster said:

You don't need to be "contributing" to be a valued member Kate. It's those like you we need more of, those with a little common sense and an understanding of what fair play is 😊

Thank you again 🤗