Potential criminalisation of dominatrixes??

[CityBoy-7009]

Something potentially really concerning: Does anyone know what the effect anti-prostitution laws (i.e. the 'Nordic Model' of  criminalising people who purchase sex) have had on professional dominatrixes? Are they considered sex workers under these laws or are they still able to operate? Several countries (Sweden, Norway, Canada,Ireland, France) now have this law, and some people in others including the UK, are trying to push for this. It is super sad if the law is coming down on completely consensual acts...

[qu****]

Interesting point as one of the Nordic model's aims is to protect women's human rights, though it can be argued it goes against a woman's human rights to have sex for a fee if she chooses, mainly bought in as a bid to stop sex trafficking from what I understand,

[ey****]

there's a lot of writings on this (a google like "why is the nordic model harmful" would help)

But, in short.  It doesn't criminalise the Dominatixes, it criminalises those who pay.   Because of this it creates an immediate danger that wouldbe clients are then people who are already comfortable with breaking the law...

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But anyway.  Yes... Pro Dommes would very likely be thrown in with the Nordic Model, even if they do not offer PIV or other acts depending on where you draw the line at sex.  Whilst in the US a 'sex act' is only really PIV - in the UK things that are deemed to be sex acts would include things like strap-on, or CBT.

The law wouldn't stop them from operating, but obviously criminalising purchasers means that some wouldn't take the risk.  This also means the more dishonest in the clients are more likely to push boundaries.

It's something a lot of the kink community is often either silent on, or lacks knowledge but it's important to know the potential impacts.  Even if you are not somebody who is ever likely to see a Pro Domme, there are many who rely on their trade including dungeons, toy makers, clothing companies, so on - most fetish events in the UK have at least one person on organiser or staff who is a Pro Domme or other sex worker.

There'd also have to be a lot of things careful with events.  Because if you pay an entry fee in the hope of meeting someone for play, anything that helps you get play as part of that entry fee would lean an argument of "does that fee go towards paying for services?".   The Nordic Model would have massive impacts on the UK fetish community, even if people don't feel it would affect them directly.

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There's not actually any form of direct proposal to bring the Nordic Model to the UK.  While some have argued for it (along with a whole bunch of other things that have been argued for over the years) it's not a direct or immediate threat.  It's still important to remain vigilant and realise that some changes have wider ranged consequences than expected. 

   

[CityBoy-7009]

a really thoughtful summary.  I agree that the fetish community need to be vigilant, and perhaps even more  - help the campaign against it (and the laws in other countries have not reduced trafficking and exploitation).

I guess France, Ireland, Canada, Sweden etc (ones with the Nordic law) may have a similar definition of sex i.e CBT and strap-on would be included. And I'm sure they have fetish events like *** Garden. Do you have any idea what the actual impact has been on pro-dommes and fetish in those countries?  How have they been viewed by the authorities since the laws were introduced?

[qu****]

Don't know about CBT, most laws bought in seem to be aimed at "protecting" women, but that's a whole other topic, absolutely right in one way, questionable in another

[CityBoy-7009]

Protecting against trafficking and *** is completely right - they are appalling practices, but in countries with the Nordic Model it hasn't been beneficial.  New Zealand had another approach - not criminalising, and sex workers feel much safer there.  Also. many of the supporters of the Nordic Model are motivated by ideology - they claim the very act of paying makes someone a slave.  This is inconsistent with other work - we all give up part of our life on this planet for an income - it doesn't mean there are not boundaries between the customer and provider, or between the boss and worker.  Many feminists are against the Nordic Model, and a major academic survey of UK sex workers in 2015 found around 70% enjoyed their work - using words like 'fun' and offering 'freedom'. Finally, I have read articles and seen supporters of the Nordic Model speak, and they have openly ignored the voice of sex workers (98% are against the Nordic M), denied they experiences and accused reputable worker organisations of being paid for a pimps (which they were ***d to withdraw after legal action).  It seems that much of it is just hate - of women workers and the clients. 

[qu****]

But then this has always gone on, to protect sensibilities of the main populous it's easier to look past the truth of the matter, in favour of their rose tinted ideals,

Edited October 29, 2020 by quietlysure
Gone on, not on

[ey****]

4 hours ago, quietlysure said:

Don't know about CBT

whilst we'd argue against it.  it involves touching genitals.

 

[qu****]

I know, I meant in the context if some countries banned it

[qu****]

It always amuses me when you see it's available on the NHS

[qu****]

Digressing, sorry

[ey****]

4 hours ago, CityBoy-7009 said:

Do you have any idea what the actual impact has been on pro-dommes and fetish in those countries?

Yes.  It's created a lot of problems

But, Ireland in particular as a dear neighbour - a lot of the Irish subs come over to England for sessions.  It's relatively cheap and easy and even after a party once in the Midlands I jokingly raced an Irish sub back home (I think it was pretty much a dead head) as between trains and regular/cheap flights and it's not as prohibitive.

Obviously in a hypothetical case of England adopting this practice that would take away that option.

It might also have an impact once the UK transition period with the EU ends.

The worst thing is - this isn't a very simple "well if you're into kink you should vote for.." because in both the UK and US we live in 2-party systems where there's little to separate the two and a lot of things regarding sex work supported both sides of the respective houses. (for additional parties. Lib Dems are pro-decrim for sex work.  The Green Party lean that way.  Mixed bag for SNP they certainly haven't be helpful in many recent sex club rows)

But this isn't a simple "best party for kink or sex work etc." so the battle exists whoever is in power.

 

[ey****]

5 hours ago, CityBoy-7009 said:

I guess France, Ireland, Canada, Sweden etc (ones with the Nordic law) may have a similar definition of sex i.e CBT and strap-on would be included. And I'm sure they have fetish events like *** Garden

Well, TG runs internationally but not in those countries  

No. They have fetish events - but it'd be difficult to fairly compare unless someone had been to multiple in different countries.

In the UK what fetish events and dungeons can and cannot do is often very much decided on a local authority level

Speaking, for example, on the case of Strap on - there (outside covid times) are strap on parties advertised in the Midlands and in London but pretty much nowhere else - and on one hand, some things work by region.  On another hand, I've spoken to someone who owned a dungeon who really wanted to host strap on parties, but the council strictly forbid them from advertising it, even though the ladies who use the dungeon do strap on in sessions. 

[qu****]

And yet I could go and have genital piercing without a problem, or if I was sub have it when ordered too, now women having it done face possibly being listed as a victim of sexual ***, and those doing it going to prison and or going on a sexual offender register,

[CityBoy-7009]

 now women having it done face possibly being listed as a victim of sexual ***, and those doing it going to prison and or going on a sexual offender register,

Is this the case now in the UK - that a woman (or man) can't consent to genital piercing?  Do you know if there have there been any prosecutions?

[CityBoy-7009]

19 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

Yes.  It's created a lot of problems

But, Ireland in particular as a dear neighbour -

So clearly in Ireland paying for a dominatrix is now illegal. I came across a UK dominatrix who openly advertises she has trips to Belfast - not sure how she does that with the law.  I also saw a Canadian (who have the 'nordic law') website this week for 3 Toronto dominatrix's - and they seemed to be still openly advertising with their faces showing (maybe Canada defines sex as PIV?).  But dominatrix in Sweden, France etc no longer seem to show their faces in the main -so I guess they are operating illegally.

Outside of Ireland, do you know of prosecutions of clients using a dominatrix in other countries?

[qu****]

From what I understand and reading various articles, it's only women it affects, not men, I believe it came in from strengthening of laws to stop FGM, a completely different sittuation

[ey****]

3 hours ago, quietlysure said:

From what I understand and reading various articles, it's only women it affects, not men, I believe it came in from strengthening of laws to stop FGM, a completely different sittuation

No, FGM has nothing to do with this. At all.  It's a totally separate issue. 

[ey****]

3 hours ago, CityBoy-7009 said:

So clearly in Ireland paying for a dominatrix is now illegal. I came across a UK dominatrix who openly advertises she has trips to Belfast - not sure how she does that with the law

Because law isn't a copy paste thing.  There are national/local/district by-laws and that can dictate what people can and cannot do

[ey****]

So.  There is so much available resources you can research.  Amnesty International have written many articles, because they've called for an end to Nordic Model.   There is a good source for the impact in different areas. 

 

[qu****]

26 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

No, FGM has nothing to do with this. At all.  It's a totally separate issue. 

Whilst a separate issue health services in England and Wales to record genital piercings as FGM, even with explicit consent given, police scotland have indicated that such piercings could be prohibited under existing anti genital mutilation legislation, from a report last year, but yes we all know it's a totally separate issue, but government and health bodies have lumped it all together, 

[qu****]

Thus creating a very grey area, I know of 8 or 9 tattoo/piercing studios that have stopped doing them due to this, and I've a friend who works in the police, can't remember how it came up but she said if both had piercings done at the same time she could end up on a victim of sexual *** register and the piercer possibly jailed and put on a register, whilst mine would be totally ignored, strange times me thinks

Edited October 30, 2020 by quietlysure
Victim of added

[Ta****]

I have never liked the idea one way or another, of either having to pay for sex or being paid.  It is clear not all female sex workers who charge for their services are 'victims' of exploitation, although many clearly are, and the Nordic law seeks to protect these.

The  Nordic law would have been more useful if it had targeted sex traffickers and the women/ girls (often foreign) who are their victims.   But I suspect there is already a law against that, or there should be.

I am pleased that the law targets pimps and kerb crawlers rather than the prostitutes themselves.  But no law is perfect and very often employs blanket policies where a more nuanced approach might be preferable (not always easy I admit).

 

[ey****]

32 minutes ago, quietlysure said:

Thus creating a very grey area, I know of 8 or 9 tattoo/piercing studios that have stopped doing them due to this, and I've a friend who works in the police, can't remember how it came up but she said if both had piercings done at the same time she could end up on a victim of sexual *** register and the piercer possibly jailed and put on a register, whilst mine would be totally ignored, strange times me thinks

FGM has nothing at all to do with Nordic Model.  These are completely different subjects.

[ey****]

5 minutes ago, TammyNatalia said:

It is clear not all female sex workers who charge for their services are 'victims' of exploitation, although many clearly are, and the Nordic law seeks to protect these.

The Nordic Model has repeatedly failed to protect these.

It has stopped ONE case in Ireland.  

6 minutes ago, TammyNatalia said:

The  Nordic law would have been more useful if it had targeted sex traffickers and the women/ girls (often foreign) who are their victims.   But I suspect there is already a law against that, or there should be.

There are sex trafficking laws.  And, to be honest, people obsess over sex trafficking but it's by far not the biggest industry to benefit from trafficking.   Fishing, Farming, Restaurant Work, Warehouse Work all use more trafficked staff than the sex industry.

7 minutes ago, TammyNatalia said:

But no law is perfect and very often employs blanket policies where a more nuanced approach might be preferable (not always easy I admit)

The thing with many of the new sex laws around the industry in recent years is... it's not that they're not perfect but deliberately imperfect.

They're nearly always packaged as a way to protect ***, or women, or young girls - and overall do more harm than good.

The Nordic Model might claim to be about trafficking, it's not. It's about controlling sex work.

SESTA/FOSTA was also designed to be anti-trafficking and makes many lives difficult and has made trafficking detection harder! 

Whilst it's temporarily long-grassed, the Age Verification for websites in the UK was claimed to 'protect ***' - it wasn't.  It was something that was lobbied for by a company that was selling age verification software. 

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The problem with the imperfect laws is they always risk affecting us.   Be it the website we're typing on now, the clubs we go to or the sexual practices we undergo consensually.  

That we are not constantly looking over our shoulders is down to some of the battles that have been won over the years - but that's a freedom we might not always be able to take for granted.  It's always best to remain vigilant and to oppose laws which, ultimately, affect our lifestyles and affect our community.