BDSM and Feminism

[Deleted Member]

Hi guys...I would like to know your opinion please. BDSM and Feminism....does BDSM enhance or belittle feminism? You have to be a strong woman to be degraded and owned yes? Or is it weak? Most women like to be submissive...yet want to be equal or more in real life? Please share your views and please keep it civil and polite.

[Lillyth]

In my opinion feminism is all about choice. The freedom to choose to explore our kinks and desires without shame or judgement. I may choose to have an exchange of power in my personal life but I want equality of opportunity for and in the world.

[Fetichiste]

i don't think "most women like to be submissive".

[Deleted Member]

Personally I feel that feminism is fairly strong within the community and that is fantastic. Wanting to be degraded, submissive, owned etc does not make a woman less of a feminist - it takes a strong woman to know what they want and to be comfortable seeking it out. What is an issue however is the amount of toxic men and misogyny that a lot of women have to deal with on here and Fetlife etc. Just because someone wants to be submissive or used does not mean you go straight in with demands or honorifics in the first encounter.

[Deleted Member]

I am a feminist and very political. When I first woke up to my needs and started exploring BDSM, I couldn’t marry the concept of wanting to be submissive with my feminism. The more I’ve learned about it and the deeper my understanding, the easier it has become to accept that the two are not mutually exclusive.

I’m not all the way there yet. I still struggle with aspects of 24/7 D/s relationships, but I do now have an understanding of how empowering it can be to relinquish power and that doing so does not necessarily equate to inequality.

Being on this site and learning about BDSM is changing my politics for the better - an interesting and unexpected development.

[ey****]

So, yep, firstly - I don't agree with the notion of 'most women like to be submissive' 

But, in general.  There have been so so so many articles about feminism and kink over the years - and some of the key words are about 'consent' and 'choice'

Like, consenting to being ***d for example is totally different to being non-consensually paid less.

[allilee]

Feminism is mental outlook.....
And alot of strong successful women..... aren't actually feminists.
Just because your a woman.... does not give any right over anything else.
You get out and make something of yourself......
I think feminism is a dated view on life. We are equal..... except for some marginal businesses pay gap.
The choice of being submissive by will does not belittle a woman I feel. And nor does a dominating woman mean your a feminist....
Feminism like veganism .... think whatever you want.... just don't preach to me about it

[slutpuppy99]

why are we bringing gender into it? its not an issue involving feminism unless you make it about the fact she is a a woman. although certainly sometimes it is about wanting to degrade or be degraded for being a women.

you said it best. they sometimes want equal OR MORE. thats the issue, the more part. which makes it not really feminism. at that point more would be superiority (which im all for FLR)

[Deleted Member]

I don't really agree with the idea that most women like to be submissive as that's a fairly outdated idea. Ultimately you are either submissive, dominant or a switch it's not really a choice tbh as it's our sexual orientation.
Anyway on to your main point, this idea has been talked about by many people for a very long time. Ultimately the best way I have seen it described by women is that feminism is about giving women the equal rights of men.
For example if a man has an active sex life he is jokingly called a male slut hehe. However if a women does this she is a SLUT! It is a negative term and people are effectively encouraged to degrade her and she is seen as less in the eyes of others.
No sexual act or dynamic that is consensual between adults nullifies a humans rights. It is all fantasy and play. Put simply if a Dom is whipping or spanking a women and calling her horrible names ect but she hits her limit and uses the safe word the Dom should stop and make sure the sub is ok.
This is respecting her rights to stop and withdraw her consent just as a man is also allowed to do this.
Feminism goes hand in hand with kink as a kinky women should be allowed to engage in consensual sexual acts that she enjoys without judgement or it being used against her in other areas of her life.
This should also be the case with men that they should not be seen as less because they like to wear female underwear and be stepped on ect.
Sadly this is no the case ATM but hopefully it will be one day.
Now of course sadly there are fake feminists who are just power/attention hungry who love to attack others including other women.
I'm also a cosplayer aswell as a Dom so I have seen a LOT of this sadly. Basically these Karen types telling other women that they are NOT allowed to wear certain outfits or like certain things because they are a women.........except that is the very opposite of the real values of feminism.
At the end of the day women just want to be treated fairly and equally and great improvements have been made when you consider how things were just 100 years ago.
Of course in my experiences the kink community is a lovely and very open minded one that excepts others so we don't see as much attacks on others based in what's between their legs so realistically kink and feminism go well together.
To finish I would like to quote a post I once saw where someone asked "how can you be kinky and support feminism at the same time?"
The response "because at the end of the day I don't care if I'm choking her or spiting on her she is still a person who has the same rights as me"

[Mz****]

First off..its an absolutely nonsense that most women like to be submissive, whether thats within kink or outside of it..such a sweeping generalisation is extremely flawed.

As to your question, personally I don't think feminism has any relevance to my sex life..do I consider myself a feminist, yes, but I'm a person first and foremost..the most basic definition of feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

It appears you think if someone is submissive within the 'bedroom' then they Must be submissive or passive outside of it, why? Do all Dominants walk about society throwing their weight around, ordering people to do this that or the other or face the belt, do they argue and disagree with bosses or colleagues simply because they're used to getting their own way in bed? Of course they don't, most are well rounded individuals who accept that a submission is only one part of a submissives makeup, and do everything they can to empower and enable outside of kink just as much as within it.

[SammyB]

So for me I would say very few women are submissive in the Ds capacity . I have many friends and work with women on a daily basis and on a whole I would say few are submissive

Like lily said submission is a choice , it’s a gift given .Does that makes me weak .... not doesn’t not , I can assure you I am very vocal with regards to women rights and that doesn’t mean I’m any less submissive .

Equally I’m am without a doubt in work life an alpha female, However when you used the word real life for me my submission is very real aspect of my every day life. Of course we want to be equal and that is both in everyday life and in Ds .Ds is a partnership and in my opinion there is equality

Remember

Theres is no submission without dominance and no dominance without submission

Also not every submissive likes *** and ***

I would also agree with kail about some of the things he mentioned with regard to how women are treated by many men

[Deleted Member]

I think it allows the space where women who want to indulge in their femininity and deep inside want to revel in their submissiveness and feel safe and not judged about it can do safely and without judgement. Also with guys who want to explore their dominance, masculinity as well as maturity to be responsible enough to care for another person seriously, to point their sub can trust let go and fully immerse so that she can trust the Dom and feel safe playing in their chosen space they identify with. I think in that sense it’s a good thing the community exists.

[Mz****]

4 minutes ago, DaddioDom said:

I think it allows the space where women who want to indulge in their femininity and deep inside want to revel in their submissiveness and feel safe and not judged about it can do safely and without judgement. Also with guys who want to explore their dominance, masculinity as well as maturity to be responsible enough to care for another person seriously, to point their sub can trust let go and fully immerse so that she can trust the Dom and feel safe playing in their chosen space they identify with. I think in that sense it’s a good thing the community exists.

So you're saying that to be feminine you must accept that deep down your submissive? And to be accept your masculinity you must be Dominant? I call bull, thats the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on this forum and thats saying  something.

 

 

[Ja****]

A lot of how I feel has been covered previously and I see no reason to rehash certain points, but I will make three further comments that have not been touched upon:

 

Feminism is the theory that all genders are equal in their legal and social rights. The word has been co-opted by a SMALL minority of hate filled women who believe that they are superior to men. They do not want equality in the future, they want revenge for the past. You must be very clear that if you use the word feminist to describe someone like this you are mislabelling them, they are as dangerous to society as white supremacy and should be afforded the same courtesy. It is worth noting that many women revile this attitude, a Australian coffee shop that wouldn't serve men was boycotted by the women in the town and ***d to close. They typically didn't accept this reality and said they had chose to move on.

 

Secondly, you make the assumption that specific roles within BDSM and kink belong to specific genders. This is wrong. Your gender does not reflect on your sexual inclinations in any way. To make such an assumption shows ignorance. Many many men are submissive, many many women are dominant. Often these roles are reversed from their vanilla life like the CEO who enjoys being spanked or the cashier at the supermarket taking charge of that CEO. 

 

Lastly, feminists are not exclusively female. As previously discussed a feminist is someone who believes in equal rights for men and women, something I wholeheartedly support. Women have the right to vote, to own a car, to a house, to walk down the road without their father or husband to escort them. If you believe that anything you are allowed to do, a woman should be allowed to do too, then you are a feminist too, no matter your gender. This works in reverse too, and anything a woman is allowed to do, a man can too. Since the majority of humanities history has involved power and rights being skewed towards men this is really in an occurrence but it is worth noting nonetheless. 

 

I hope this clarifies a few mistaken assumptions in your initial post. 

[LanceH]

My personal opinion is that femininity can be expressed better through BDSM. Whether the person is of either polar or even a switch....if it makes them feel better then it makes them better able to face the world as a strong person.

[ey****]

Another thing to think about.

Being a sub is in no way any form of being 'lesser' - so this only becomes an issue if you think a sub can't be feminist because a sub is lesser - and you would be wrong.

[Lillyth]

I agree with a lot of what has been said above.

I do not believe or at least my outlook as a feminist does not involve anything other than equality of opportunity. Not equality of outcome but opportunity. Women and men must have the same opportunities open to them. Of course women and men are very different in many ways so may not achieve the same outcomes, but they should not be denied the chance based on their gender.

Like many others have said this does not or should not be a factor in the dynamics we choose for our personal relationships/lives.

[Ja****]

34 minutes ago, Lillyth said:

I do not believe or at least my outlook as a feminist does not involve anything other than equality of opportunity. Not equality of outcome but opportunity. Women and men must have the same opportunities open to them. Of course women and men are very different in many ways so may not achieve the same outcomes, but they should not be denied the chance based on their gender.

Sounds like someone is a fan of Jordan Peterson. You are absolutely right that we are very different creatures and it shows in lifestyle choices and careers. But that does not mean we have different rights. 😁

[Lillyth]

I didn't at any point suggest we have different rights, I vehemently stand against that! I'm confused as to what about what I said gave that impression.

And I'm not a fan of Jordan Peterston. I find him to be a very interesting character but disagree with his viewpoints in many ways.

[Ja****]

2 hours ago, Lillyth said:

I didn't at any point suggest we have different rights, I vehemently stand against that! I'm confused as to what about what I said gave that impression.

And I'm not a fan of Jordan Peterston. I find him to be a very interesting character but disagree with his viewpoints in many ways.

To clarify Lillyth, I was agreeing with you, whilst adding a comment of my own. At no point did what I say argue against what you did, rather support it.

 

Equality of opportunity and equality of outcome are something Jordan Peterson talks about a lot, I assumed (incorrectly) that is why you chose those terms. 

[Lillyth]

Ahhh ok my apologies Jack, I guess I took it the wrong way lol.

I have had to defend my stance on being a feminist so much with people that I'll guess I jumped to the wrong conclusion 😂 

[ca****]

Opening it wider (if you like) - i find questions like this pretty banal really ... but as the OP states he is asking know people's opinions.

 

I expect the answers to all of the questions will vary massively depending upon circumstance and individual.....  i hope they do.

 

But turning the question around a bit...  how does it apply to male slaves, submissives and their equality / masculinity??  

Edited December 12, 2020 by callipygian

[Deleted Member]

Ok...so I wrote this to get reactions. And I did. Firstly you all should know that I myself am a feminist in the truest form of the word.

I campaign and fight for the equal rights of women across the globe.

Largely we have equality in the West but work still needs to be done.

There are many regions of the world that have a lot to answer for.

I'm sorry to say that those countries that lack equality are generally religious states. 

There are many factions within the feminist movement and some are pernicious as others have noted...toxic femininity etc. I'm simply intrigued in the whole subject. 

My experience of this subject is almost constantly changing.

I have had relationships with some very powerful women and some that would describe themselves as meek. My experience personally is that most women tend towards being/acting/ wanting to be submissive in a sexual encounter.

Like many have said...thst submission is a gift given. I being a man naturally feel dominant so I guess we fullfill how we feel if you get me. It's just that some times I feel that there is a juxtaposition of sorts. A hypocrisy. An irony at work.

Ofcourse my experience is subjective and its almost impossible to make an objective opinion from this subject and my initial comment. I make my observations from the view pont of a man. Not a woman. So I'm intrigued. There is something in submissive that seems weak to me.

Something that is at opposition of being a feminist. ...ie strong, independent, adversarial etc. I'm dominant because that's how I feel as a man. I realise that men throughout history have caused wars etc because of this feeling of dominance,  so I find it strange that a true feminist could ever celebrate this dominance, ***d control of a man upon them. 

To me it's an oxymoron, a juxtaposition, a composition oppositorium, an irony.....But then I remember the old addage of Opposites Attract....and then it all makes sense. Please be kind and honest in your reply.

This subject is far more nuanced than I have stipulated,  so I ask your forgiveness in my naivety of deliverance. 

There is a good chance I have not explained myself clearly and I will therefore attract derision.  I do not seek to be devisive...only to seek understanding. I often find it difficult to articulate myself well to others. Especially so in written form.

Peace and good health to you all 🙏

Edited December 14, 2020 by Deleted Member

[Wo****]

1 hour ago, DaddyDomBDSM said:

There is something in submissive that seems weak to me

This is only thing I disagree with.

 

I think males, biologically (generally) are bigger, stronger and more dominant.

That said, consider matriachal groups (elephants spring to mind).

 

Why is submission weak? What do you consider submission?

 

 

[Deleted Member]

I love your observations. You are being disingenuous though....suggesting I have to make an argument or give credence to my premise. I dont. It's a widely accepted notion throughout the *** kingdom. Your scenario elephants is fairly isolated. Yes there is a Matriarchy. Generally males rome freely to mate freely. Darwin's theory of evolution accounts for most things. Hence my question....is it mainly a cultural aspect ? Do we need to be looking at this topic culturally or biologically. Or both?