Is anyone else feeling like this?

[ey****]

I think one thing to consider

Everyone follows a crowd

The concept of 'free thinker' is often a myth - the concept of challenging a narrative and questioning things isn't bad as such - but a lot of 'free thinkers' merely reject one idea to go and find something that fits their own views.

And then there's this problem that people get angry or frustrated people don't follow their views (follow THEIR crowd) it's all the same.   Because even when you use terms like 'free thinkers' it's already coming from a divisive point that you feel like you're smarter than the people who are, for whatever reason, following the guidance.

And here's some truth. There's shit none of us know. So we all make the steps we believe are right. Whether we believe that vaccines will decrease our risk. Whether we believe masks help others. Whether we believe none of this makes a difference.  When your idea of "I did my research" is watching videos of discredited scientists - that's not research.   Most of these haven't done research either.

I've not done research. I don't have an access to a lab, or tech, or able to run experiments.  So, like everyone else. I make decisions on what I feel is the best thing to do.

Quote

 

Look at some of the previous, "wild conspiracy theories", that proved to be true:

--  "Covid originated in a viral lab."

 

That actually hasn't been proven to be true.  

Quote

--  "Lockdowns will last a lot longer than 3 weeks."

Absolutely. I'm not sure if it was always known they would last longer and there were worries it would be rejected if people knew the truth - but, especially in the early days new things were being learnt daily which changed perspectives

 

Quote

 

--  "Vaccinated people are still getting sick from Covid"

There was never any doubt this would happen.  Before the vaccines were even approved there were stats on what the estimated protection would be - which wasn't 100%.  Nobody ever denied this would happen.  Even the best vaccines in the world... I think measles is something like 98% - nothing is 100% because there are always exceptions and edge cases.

Quote

--  "Governments plan to impose "vaccine passports", to monitor/control people's movements."

This is probably the only one to come true with any form of merit or legs.

And a lot of this.... it's like the fortune teller at the fair.

What happens is they tell you a bunch of stuff, often that you want to hear - and they get a lot wrong.  But you want to believe.  So you cling on the bits they get right.

You then misinterpret or misrepresent what else they've said to fit so you're convinced the fortune teller was great.  

Of course - what doesn't help is that there are those in government who capitalise on opportunities - be it handing contracts to their mates, or letting covid rip through care homes (helping 'save' £600m on the pensions!) and yep, some of the rules and punishments for breaking rules were very uneven ("I'm just going to drive to Barnard Castle")  

But. I've seen people struggled with covid. Who've either had unpleasant days in hospital or are still struggling with long covid a year later.  I've seen someone go into hospital for something routine and caught covid while in there (which is why they've had to be careful with cancer patients who are higher at risk - we can't treat cancer patients if hospitals are full of covid patients)  - and - yep, I've seen someone who has done the old "I'm not worried about no flu" who ended up on tubes for a week.

I appreciate some folk haven't - and - you make the decisions you think are right based on experience.  

And if someone says, I'm sorry - but if you're not *at least* willing to take a LFT I don't want to sit with you - then this is them taking steps for their safety because you won't.  I'm sorry.

[Deleted Member]

14 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I think one thing to consider

Everyone follows a crowd

The concept of 'free thinker' is often a myth - the concept of challenging a narrative and questioning things isn't bad as such - but a lot of 'free thinkers' merely reject one idea to go and find something that fits their own views.

And then there's this problem that people get angry or frustrated people don't follow their views (follow THEIR crowd) it's all the same.   Because even when you use terms like 'free thinkers' it's already coming from a divisive point that you feel like you're smarter than the people who are, for whatever reason, following the guidance.

And here's some truth. There's shit none of us know. So we all make the steps we believe are right. Whether we believe that vaccines will decrease our risk. Whether we believe masks help others. Whether we believe none of this makes a difference.  When your idea of "I did my research" is watching videos of discredited scientists - that's not research.   Most of these haven't done research either.

I've not done research. I don't have an access to a lab, or tech, or able to run experiments.  So, like everyone else. I make decisions on what I feel is the best thing to do.

That actually hasn't been proven to be true.  

Absolutely. I'm not sure if it was always known they would last longer and there were worries it would be rejected if people knew the truth - but, especially in the early days new things were being learnt daily which changed perspectives

 

There was never any doubt this would happen.  Before the vaccines were even approved there were stats on what the estimated protection would be - which wasn't 100%.  Nobody ever denied this would happen.  Even the best vaccines in the world... I think measles is something like 98% - nothing is 100% because there are always exceptions and edge cases.

This is probably the only one to come true with any form of merit or legs.

And a lot of this.... it's like the fortune teller at the fair.

What happens is they tell you a bunch of stuff, often that you want to hear - and they get a lot wrong.  But you want to believe.  So you cling on the bits they get right.

You then misinterpret or misrepresent what else they've said to fit so you're convinced the fortune teller was great.  

Of course - what doesn't help is that there are those in government who capitalise on opportunities - be it handing contracts to their mates, or letting covid rip through care homes (helping 'save' £600m on the pensions!) and yep, some of the rules and punishments for breaking rules were very uneven ("I'm just going to drive to Barnard Castle")  

But. I've seen people struggled with covid. Who've either had unpleasant days in hospital or are still struggling with long covid a year later.  I've seen someone go into hospital for something routine and caught covid while in there (which is why they've had to be careful with cancer patients who are higher at risk - we can't treat cancer patients if hospitals are full of covid patients)  - and - yep, I've seen someone who has done the old "I'm not worried about no flu" who ended up on tubes for a week.

I appreciate some folk haven't - and - you make the decisions you think are right based on experience.  

And if someone says, I'm sorry - but if you're not *at least* willing to take a LFT I don't want to sit with you - then this is them taking steps for their safety because you won't.  I'm sorry.

So what is your description of a free thinker? If your beliefs are for freedom of choice? All I see is do as your told or else. I wouldn't call that any kind of freedom or unity. History has a bad habit of repeating itself, and we are heading down a path that we will regret and won't be able to turn back. And no amount of debate will ever fix it

[ey****]

6 minutes ago, Chiana said:

So what is your description of a free thinker? 

A free thinker would be open to other ideas which do not already fit their own assumptions or prejudices.  They may have a preferred way of doing things but would be open to new, or better ideas.

They would be open to try new things to test theories; open to trial and error.  They would accept limitations in their own knowledgebase and seek reputable sources when required.  

If 93% of scientists say climate change is real and 7% say it is not - then they should obviously accept that 93% may be incorrect but this should be their basis unless they can produce evidence of their own.  Because going with the 7% because it supports their belief is not free thinking.

11 minutes ago, Chiana said:

If your beliefs are for freedom of choice? All I see is do as your told or else. I wouldn't call that any kind of freedom or unity.

There is a lot I believe in freedom.  But freedom of choice is not freedom from responsibility nor is it freedom from consequences.  There is also this awful case where it's impossible to get a perfect balance as our freedom may impact someone else's.

At midnight tonight I could decide to put extreme death metal on extremely loud.  This is my freedom. The freedom to listen to music in my home at a volume I like.  But, this interferes with my neighbours freedom to have a peaceful night sleep.

So there's trying to work out where one's freedom oversteps onto someone else's.

Equally. If a nightclub can turn me away because I don't adhere to the dress code, they can turn me away because I won't do a LFT.  Regardless of if this is right or wrong, this is their right as a private business.  I am not being discriminated against, it was my choice to ignore the dress code. It was my choice to refuse a LFT.

Quote

History has a bad habit of repeating itself,

it depends on which piece of history you're most worried about

If you are referring to what I feel you might be then you may be falling into antisemitism trap.

Unless, of course, you're referring to things like smallpox being existence for longer than necessary because people were spreading misinformation about getting vaccinated - then - yes, you might be right.

[Deleted Member]

3 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

A free thinker would be open to other ideas which do not already fit their own assumptions or prejudices.  They may have a preferred way of doing things but would be open to new, or better ideas.

They would be open to try new things to test theories; open to trial and error.  They would accept limitations in their own knowledgebase and seek reputable sources when required.  

If 93% of scientists say climate change is real and 7% say it is not - then they should obviously accept that 93% may be incorrect but this should be their basis unless they can produce evidence of their own.  Because going with the 7% because it supports their belief is not free thinking.

There is a lot I believe in freedom.  But freedom of choice is not freedom from responsibility nor is it freedom from consequences.  There is also this awful case where it's impossible to get a perfect balance as our freedom may impact someone else's.

At midnight tonight I could decide to put extreme death metal on extremely loud.  This is my freedom. The freedom to listen to music in my home at a volume I like.  But, this interferes with my neighbours freedom to have a peaceful night sleep.

So there's trying to work out where one's freedom oversteps onto someone else's.

Equally. If a nightclub can turn me away because I don't adhere to the dress code, they can turn me away because I won't do a LFT.  Regardless of if this is right or wrong, this is their right as a private business.  I am not being discriminated against, it was my choice to ignore the dress code. It was my choice to refuse a LFT.

it depends on which piece of history you're most worried about

If you are referring to what I feel you might be then you may be falling into antisemitism trap.

Unless, of course, you're referring to things like smallpox being existence for longer than necessary because people were spreading misinformation about getting vaccinated - then - yes, you might be right.

Am I offending you some how? My concerns are a problem to you? You seem to getting ***ed off about something but you just want to disassemble everything anyone else says. And to say that somehow I automatically think I'm smarter than anyone else has not been said and is an assumption by you. I'm open for debate, I'm not here to try and belittle people so if you don't like what is being said here then scroll on...

[ey****]

It's interesting you want to shut down this "debate" as soon as you're presented with arguments you don't like.

 

[Deleted Member]

2 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

It's interesting you want to shut down this "debate" as soon as you're presented with arguments you don't like.

 

The arguments aren't the problem, your attitude towards any one else is....feel free to leave at any time.

[ey****]

1 minute ago, Chiana said:

feel free to leave at any time.

same to you.

[Deleted Member]

1 minute ago, eyemblacksheep said:

same to you.

Sorry I created this post weather you block me or I bock you. Either way your leaving this post

[ey****]

I thought you believed in freedom - and therefore my freedom to comment?

[Deleted Member]

He said something, but he's blocked...so go troll elsewhere

[ey****]

In seriousness (not that I wasn't being) I have no real interest in a circular argument. 

But. It is difficult times for a lot of people and - sadly, I'm not saying things are pointless - but we're probably closer to the start of the pandemic than the end.  The UK trying a weird 'learn to live with virus' thing which we're getting away with, just about, due to it being summer time - but if hospital admissions continue upward may struggled when we get into the Autumn which brings it's own challenges.

Not just covid. But mental health. And other health conditions that cannot be treat if hospitals are filling with covid patients.

We each need to do what we feel is best for us. But we also need to accept other people have a different risk profile to us.  This means if someone is being more cautious than us (rightfully or wrongly) we should respect their boundaries - but equally, there's no law saying you can't go out every night dancing on tables or going to multi-person gangbangs.  If that is what you want to do, that should be respected but that, well, another person my be cautious.   

We control our own thoughts and actions. We cannot control others. Which means, if someone or a business or whatever feels we're outside their risk profile - we cannot dictate to them their profile is wrong. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by eyemblacksheep

[Deleted Member]

Perfect definition of the toxic attitude I said at the start, well got the version of freedom of choice that you wanted,  none

[Phoenyx]

First of all, I would like to thank the Mods for being generous enough to allow this discussion.  Of course, if this descends into vitriol and word-twisting, they will shut it down.

Just a couple quick points, as I'm cooking dinner, and don't want to burn it.  First of all, Eyem, I would have expected better from you.  Though you didn't get into the current mob mentality of name-calling and finger pointing, you sure did dance along that line.  Merely repeating the government/corporate narrative it not presenting an argument.

"Free thinkers", by the way, are also those who think outside of the crowd.  They are those who sense flaws in the crowd thinking, and hold them up to the light.  They are certainly not those who will settle to being told what to think.  Even if they agree with the required thinking, they will speak out against being told to think that way.  They are not disagreeing with the thinking---just disagreeing with the "mandates".  And no, they are not a myth.  Perhaps, "lateral thinking" might be a better description.

On the subject of "discredited scientists", who discredited them?  The government?  The Media?  Are those really credible sources?  For example, the government has stated that the vaccines are 90% effective.  Yet, one of their own recent reports has stated the effectiveness has now dropped to 43%, and is still falling.  Further, they are now talking about having to get booster shots for the rest of your life.

Now: "Vaccine Passports".  Yes, clubs can require dress codes and ID, to prove legal age.  However, unlike "vaccine passports", a person's ID is not scanned, a record of their visit is not uploaded to a government database to be permanently stored, and a person is not being tracked.

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

There is a lot I believe in freedom.  But freedom of choice is not freedom from responsibility nor is it freedom from consequences.  There is also this awful case where it's impossible to get a perfect balance as our freedom may impact someone else's.

This is called "Collectivism".  It is the idea that I can demand control over another person's actions, because their actions might somehow affect me.  Learning from history was mentioned.  So, how well did collectivism work for the people of China or the old Soviet Union?  The analogy of "loud music" does not apply here.  One can always be asked to turn it down.  It is not the same as forcing someone to inject a questionable substance into their body.  It is not the same as being told to sign-away any-and-all liability rights, to get such an injection.

As a final note, consider this:  The government is pushing this vaccine.  The media are pushing this vaccine.  The political ideologues are pushing this vaccine.  The big corporations are pushing this vaccine.  Yet, my own doctor is not!  Further, vaccines (no matter what kind) only protect the individual---not the public at large.  FACT!

Well, I had better get back to my dinner, before I burn it.  I will check-in tomorrow.

[Deleted Member]

14 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

First of all, I would like to thank the Mods for being generous enough to allow this discussion.  Of course, if this descends into vitriol and word-twisting, they will shut it down.

Just a couple quick points, as I'm cooking dinner, and don't want to burn it.  First of all, Eyem, I would have expected better from you.  Though you didn't get into the current mob mentality of name-calling and finger pointing, you sure did dance along that line.  Merely repeating the government/corporate narrative it not presenting an argument.

"Free thinkers", by the way, are also those who think outside of the crowd.  They are those who sense flaws in the crowd thinking, and hold them up to the light.  They are certainly not those who will settle to being told what to think.  Even if they agree with the required thinking, they will speak out against being told to think that way.  They are not disagreeing with the thinking---just disagreeing with the "mandates".  And no, they are not a myth.  Perhaps, "lateral thinking" might be a better description.

On the subject of "discredited scientists", who discredited them?  The government?  The Media?  Are those really credible sources?  For example, the government has stated that the vaccines are 90% effective.  Yet, one of their own recent reports has stated the effectiveness has now dropped to 43%, and is still falling.  Further, they are now talking about having to get booster shots for the rest of your life.

Now: "Vaccine Passports".  Yes, clubs can require dress codes and ID, to prove legal age.  However, unlike "vaccine passports", a person's ID is not scanned, a record of their visit is not uploaded to a government database to be permanently stored, and a person is not being tracked.

This is called "Collectivism".  It is the idea that I can demand control over another person's actions, because their actions might somehow affect me.  Learning from history was mentioned.  So, how well did collectivism work for the people of China or the old Soviet Union?  The analogy of "loud music" does not apply here.  One can always be asked to turn it down.  It is not the same as forcing someone to inject a questionable substance into their body.  It is not the same as being told to sign-away any-and-all liability rights, to get such an injection.

As a final note, consider this:  The government is pushing this vaccine.  The media are pushing this vaccine.  The political ideologues are pushing this vaccine.  The big corporations are pushing this vaccine.  Yet, my own doctor is not!  Further, vaccines (no matter what kind) only protect the individual---not the public at large.  FACT!

Well, I had better get back to my dinner, before I burn it.  I will check-in tomorrow.

Believe me I was surprised at that too. I normally have had good convosations with eyem in the past and yes he has good knowledge on certain subjects, but that was a perfect display of the issue, so sorry I'm blocking you eyem. I've had no problems with anything else said here weather I believe it or not. Pheonyx thank you 🙏 you just said it best

[Deleted Member]

Mods please kill this thread it’s insane and has absolutely nothing to do with kink. Kill it with fire before we drown in conspiracy theories and anti vax loonies. Thank you 🙏 x

[Deleted Member]

9 minutes ago, Darkswitch said:

Mods please kill this thread it’s insane and has absolutely nothing to do with kink. Kill it with fire before we drown in conspiracy theories and anti vax loonies. Thank you 🙏 x

Thats why it's in the sos section. 

[Sa****]

I am going to butt in, so excuse me. I have had many conversations with many people around the world. The one thing that is lost is being opened minded and respectful. I believe in science and the health field but I am also religious. I will say I don’t like most anti-vaxers but I am always respectful to them as long as they are to me. I have to agree with Darkswitch though because this opens the door for a lot of arguing. Just like in the kink community “Your kink is not my kink, and that’s ok” if we apply this to all things in life we can get along better. We are all from different walks of life and all it should take is saying I am sorry but my points of view are different. If you want to discuss it with someone then PM them, the chat room and forum, in my opinion is not the place. Just remember as we go through these hard times you don’t have to believe in what someone else does but you do have to respect them and if you can’t handle what they say or it goes against your fundamental beliefs then move on or block them. You can’t judge everyone around you cause they have different points of view then them, even when it’s a crazy conspiracy’s. We all have to make our own life choices.

[Deleted Member]

Sara I love you’re heart on this one. It would be lovely if it was like that and I would love it to be. However someone here has just said they want Fauci to get the chair. We are already off the deep end. Kill this thread guys it’s only going to get worse and more ridiculous

[Deleted Member]

33 minutes ago, Darkswitch said:

Sara I love you’re heart on this one. It would be lovely if it was like that and I would love it to be. However someone here has just said they want Fauci to get the chair. We are already off the deep end. Kill this thread guys it’s only going to get worse and more ridiculous

Who are you to be the moral judgement on what is talked about here? Again if you don't like it move on. This is good because it shows me who to avoid....you show the exact problem I was describing .....don't bother replying I'm blocking you both

[FETMOD-KF]

yeah. sorry. this thread is going nowhere.  

While it's good to have conversations outside of kink - blocking anyone who you disagree with is not a conversation - and, by design, this is not a conversation.    So - we're ending this as it'll get worse before it gets better.   Sorry.