Speaking up about consent ***s

[CopperKnob]

What Happens When You Talk About a Consent *** in the Community

This is what will happen if you talk about a consent *** on kink social media: They will blame you. They’ll dole out droll lectures about personal responsibility. They’ll scurry out of the cracks and down your throat like roaches as though they can steal your voice through sheer numbers. Maybe they will steal your voice, but maybe you will try shouting louder.

This is what will happen if you try shouting louder: They will develop long and involved opinions on a life they didn’t even know existed a minute ago. They will pick your personal weaknesses from your skin like primates grooming each other but theres no social bonding or reduction of stress here. If you aren’t perfect, they will find a thousand frailties to blame because anything you can shout, they can shout louder.

This is what they’ll shout louder: That you lacked the personal responsibility to avoid a dodgy Dom. That you lack the strength not to be affected by this. That you lacked the forethought to predict the mess that would follow and the subservience to be silent afterwards.

This is how they will interpret your lack of silence: You’re just kicking up drama. Your *** wasn’t that bad. Worse things have happened in the name of poorly-placed trust, so just be quiet. Cut out your tongue if you must but just. Stop. Talking. So. Much. It’s time to get back to having fun and being kinky.

This is what will happen when they get back to having fun and being kinky: the person who violated your consent will slip into the fun and kinky crowds, reputation intact. He will arrange play dates. He will find a new person to violate.

This is what will happen when he finds a new person to violate: They’ll scurry out of the cracks and down her throat like roaches as though they can steal her voice through sheer numbers. They will blame her. They’ll dole out droll lectures about personal responsibility. It’s her fault she trusted him. Her fault she didn’t see the warning signs.

Her fault that people aren’t having fun or being kinky right now.

Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Consent violators are typically repeat offenders don't allow the community to steal your voice

[ey****]

yep - it's sad but true

there's so many weird random backflips people will do.

And what is worse.... the ***r will sometimes be overly open about the allegations with a prospective new partner - preying on everything from "being open and honest" to being the "real victim here"

When something inevitably happens with the new partner - she will either feel silent (almost blaming herself for ignoring the signs) or when raising it be replied to everything from "well you knew what he was like" to "being part of a conspiracy" 

and ugh, it's just bullshit :/ 

[Deleted Member]

Yes, some of this will happen. I agree. Are you going to talk about the people that don't do this, that support those who speak up, who ban consent violators from their events, who keep on pushing for communities not to accept this? Because they are around too.

[CopperKnob]

15 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

yep - it's sad but true

there's so many weird random backflips people will do.

And what is worse.... the ***r will sometimes be overly open about the allegations with a prospective new partner - preying on everything from "being open and honest" to being the "real victim here"

When something inevitably happens with the new partner - she will either feel silent (almost blaming herself for ignoring the signs) or when raising it be replied to everything from "well you knew what he was like" to "being part of a conspiracy" 

and ugh, it's just bullshit :/ 

Exactly what happened "I can't speak up because she's new". "I can't speak to community leaders because Doms are 10 a penny, they don't care about us". They'll also typically be very 'pro consent' and you'll be content with that, you'll like it, you'll see it as a positive. It's only when you look back, you'll recognise it for what it was. Manipulation at its best.

[CopperKnob]

8 minutes ago, Dragonflylover said:

Yes, some of this will happen. I agree. Are you going to talk about the people that don't do this, that support those who speak up, who ban consent violators from their events, who keep on pushing for communities not to accept this? Because they are around too.

Probably in time I will because you and I both know they are around. It may however take a different path than you might expect because I think that the reality is that those who are banned etc start to hide and we loose track of them and that to me is even more dangerous

[Deleted Member]

This. This is the reason I have stopped contributing anything on Fetlife. The sycophants/followers/whateveryoucallthem appear out of the woodwork to shout people down. The cliques defend their own, even when it means these types of offences get brushed under the carpet. It happened to a good friend of mine, and she was distraught...even to the point where she asked me repeatedly if it HAD been her fault after all? Fuck these people. As @Copperknob said...shout it loud and don't stop.

[Deleted Member]

18 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

Probably in time I will because you and I both know they are around. It may however take a different path than you might expect because I think that the reality is that those who are banned etc start to hide and we loose track of them and that to me is even more dangerous

I don't expect anything - you will always write from your perspective. As you know it took over a year for my consent violator to finally get banned. But I have been around long enough to know that there are plenty of people who will call out consent violators, who will support, who will fight to keep others safe. It's an ongoing battle, but it is being fought.

[ey****]

26 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

Exactly what happened "I can't speak up because she's new". "I can't speak to community leaders because Doms are 10 a penny, they don't care about us". They'll also typically be very 'pro consent' and you'll be content with that, you'll like it, you'll see it as a positive. It's only when you look back, you'll recognise it for what it was. Manipulation at its best.

add in, of course

if the ***r has any form of standing

or, even if they don't - but have gone through a vetting system and someone is new just trying to be vetted and so can't speak out against someone who has been rubber stamped about knowing best.

[Deleted Member]

5 hours ago, CopperKnob said:

What Happens When You Talk About a Consent *** in the Community..........
..............
Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Consent violators are typically repeat offenders don't allow the community to steal your voice

Good morning CopperKnob and everybody else in the link.

 

My immediate reaction reading what CopperKnob shared was WOW! How terrible a situation for somebody to be in! I felt so sorry to see the level of distress in this vicious cynical circle where a fellow human being is traumatised and then ***d to silence! No sane person would wish, let alone do, such vial action even in their worst enemy! 

 

I dont often write posts on the site. Perhaps that might be the first. I have followed the discussion, this one and others, initiated by CopperKnob and Dragonflylover. I like both the content and vivacity of the posts. 

How brilliant it would have been if all of us kept in mind that BDSM, "vanilla", "chocolate", "strawberry", or any other "flavours" of life are ways to connect and fulfil us as humans! 

 

Aiming to share some more thoughts, if I may, I would instead start with a question. What's an appropriate sub or Dom behaviour that will help us avoid ***?  Some people might say that it depends on how each person feels, so it bounds to be subjective. At least, that is the first thought that comes to mind. But, on a second, more careful read, it begs the question, are any limits/borders that should be considered in behaviours and our expectations? 

A possible way to judge a subjective stance on the matter can be via considering the legal and ethical/moral perspectives. However, it is also worthy of being reminded that even those have a level of subjectivity. Rightly or wrongly have been evolving to keep in parity with the mainstream parts of society, reflecting our democratic system of governance. 

Focusing only on the legal stance for now and assuming a "western" type democratic society, Consenting adults have broad freedom to conduct themselves the way they want! This owes to be a common starting point for all of us. Still, I thought it relevant to share some thoughts about the two critical words in the sentence.

Consenting: this is the most widely accepted part, which hopefully, everybody knows and follows. Also, there is a significant obligation for everybody in the lifestyle to protect this! It follows that when examples of NON-consensual acts are coming to our attention, we should offer our support to the kinkster that is ***d and if things don't take a turn for the best, seriously consider the option to escalate it to the proper authorities!! In cases I had to do so, I admit it was gratifying to see how a bully turned into a very constructive person while being cautioned by a PC! Of course, escalation isn't an act of vengeance, rather an act of support to both.

In many cases, the perpetrator might need help too. I hope it is obvious that NO HEALTHY people get out of bed wondering which human being will damage irreparably that day! I am sure we all have heard stories about misogynists disguised as Doms praying in *** subs. In some cases scarring them mentally and physically for life! Such destructive, despicable behaviours are shaming us kinksters in the consciousness of the wider society too. 

 

Want: This last part is relatively less clear and much more open to interpretation. It encompasses non-physical ***. So behaviours such as coercing, manipulating, threatening, bullying, intimidating another human being to endure or even offer "consent" for acts happening or following, are unlawful!

I guess it might be much easier to manage this when the D/s aspects are confined in a play between lovers. Yet, in a D/s relationship, power exchange can happen casually at any time. So ensuring that the WANT of both partners is always met can be an actual minefield at times, depending on many factors. For instance, the lovers' experience, type of kinks they do enjoy, impulsivity in their personality, you name it! So everybody tends to be a little uncomfortable speaking about this part. Our reluctance to talk about that area is also a point exploited by those predatory, abusive scumbags!

I discovered my sadistic inclination some four years ago. I am not ashamed to say that initially, I had some very agonising moments about what was wrong with me! It took some encouragement from my sub/slave lovers to overcome it and accept that it was alright. Hands-on the air, there were moments that things got out of hand. You feel terrible and a total idiot, and you try to console your partner, whom you love btw! You then learn from it, and you dont repeat it. So I dont think anybody is considering as *** these innocent momentary lapses of focus that are addressed immediately and empathetically.

*** is the premeditated and systematic choice of non-physical *** coercing, intimidating the partner to tolerate or offer a "pseudo-consent". Perpetrators chose this type of *** because they know it causes an extra burden on the victim to prove the unlawful action in the justice system. They also take advantage of it being a grey area for giving themselves space to plead their "innocence" in a social environment, like in the text in CopperKnobs post. So I believe the non-physical *** is the kind of abusive behaviour fitting closer to the dreadful situation that CopperKnob shared with the rest of us.  

The UK domestic *** legislation, particularly the coercive control law, into *** since 2016, can be very informative and can be a reference point.

One might argue that newbies into the lifestyle might be unlikely to get themselves familiarised with legal documents. Still, they do read forum threads, blogs etc. So it is worth referencing a legal frame or other documents in forums like FET and other BDSM sites. I recently stumbled across a very interesting PhD thesis dealing with modern moral sexual frameworks, which I am yet to read.

Goodness me!! I had a look at what I put together, and it is a rather long message. I hope you find it worth reading rather than bored you to sleep! 

Have a lovely rest of the day, everybody! 

[Deleted Member]

4 hours ago, TheScribe said:

This. This is the reason I have stopped contributing anything on Fetlife. The sycophants/followers/whateveryoucallthem appear out of the woodwork to shout people down. The cliques defend their own, even when it means these types of offences get brushed under the carpet. It happened to a good friend of mine, and she was distraught...even to the point where she asked me repeatedly if it HAD been her fault after all? Fuck these people. As @Copperknob said...shout it loud and don't stop.

The thing is, a site and a community is what people make it. I left Fetlife too, after my consent was violated. But there are lots of good things and good people on that site. I have a voice and I want to use it so I have started to venture back a little and continue to speak up.

[ey****]

1 hour ago, KinkyDomProf said:

What's an appropriate sub or Dom behaviour that will help us avoid ***?

Perhaps the saddest part of this is that there isn't one.

I mean, there are good practices. Sure. But even with these good practices - there is always the risk.  I mean there are people who ***d others while a camera was rolling on them, actual video evidence, and it can still be handwaved as "well they knew this was being recorded so why would they deliberately violate your consent?"

And equally, even if you do something that is totally advised against - it's still not the victims fault if they were ***d or consent violated.   

1 hour ago, KinkyDomProf said:

*** is the premeditated and systematic choice of non-physical *** coercing, intimidating the partner to tolerate or offer a "pseudo-consent". Perpetrators chose this type of *** because they know it causes an extra burden on the victim to prove the unlawful action in the justice system

Not just that.

We over rely on the justice system in ways.  I've heard "we can't do anything without a conviction" too many times when the person should know how difficult it is to get a conviction and what types of behaviours are, at minimum, inappropriate.

[Leisa]

It’s disgusting when it happens. It’s even more disturbing when you’re strong enough to stand up and shout enough but no one listens. Those who violate consent and use mental manipulation are the worst. There was one such “dom” on the site a couple of years ago who’s web of deceit I was caught up in for a very brief time before speaking up and confronting in the lobby forum in front of dozens. Luckily I had the backing of many when it happened but what I found the most disturbing was that I kept hearing is xyz I see you’re at it again. If they’re at it again is it not our responsibility to have a conversation with the next individual before they’re suddenly the victim? I’ve learned by doing so that no good deed goes unpunished. Regardless, when I see this person has again found someone new to violate I warn and will continue to do so. I haven’t seen him around for a few months so maybe he has scuttled off into the cracks elsewhere because the light became too bright. I still think it’s our duty to protect those who need it and make the effort to warn.

[Glasgowdom1991]

Anyone speaking up needs to be protected and listened to

[Glasgowdom1991]

Also need to realise that breaches of consent are crimes especially in Scotland where the law is continuous consent i.e. consent must be given in real time at every stage and it can not be implied it must be given and ambush or pressure consent are classed as *** in Scotland

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, Dragonflylover said:

The thing is, a site and a community is what people make it. I left Fetlife too, after my consent was violated. But there are lots of good things and good people on that site. I have a voice and I want to use it so I have started to venture back a little and continue to speak up.

I agree with you there, some great people and advice/event notices. What I truly hate is the hierarchical system that has developed. It is like being rich...you get a better standard of justice. When someone with thousands of followers/friends is accused/admonished by someone with barely any it becomes a witch hunt, and the smaller account is hounded quiet. I asked if a system could be put in place that PREVENTS anyone in such a case from posting details on their timeline until it has been resolved..have an arbitration system inhouse so to speak...heard nothing ~shrugs~ nor expect to.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

Perhaps the saddest part of this is that there isn't one.............

................We over rely on the justice system in ways.  I've heard "we can't do anything without a conviction" too many times when the person should know how difficult it is to get a conviction and what types of behaviours are, at minimum, inappropriate.

Definitely I echo both of your points, eyemblacksheep. 

For the latter, I could only imagine the enormous frustration to people traumatised by "skilful" ***rs who prey on the *** by trading in the grey zones of the law and intrinsic failures of the law and the relevant authorities ie social services, judicial, CPS, police.  

Even with those drawbacks, it is still beneficial to have an awareness of the legality of things:

1. It builds a spine helping you to resist.
2. It allows you to get clued up and a point of reference, for when the bully is trying to throw you off balance, playing with your insecurities.
3. It brings you faster to the thought of how wrong it is for you to defend your legal rights to a person you are getting intimate with.
4. Hopefully, if nothing else, It might act as a possible deterrent to prospecting ***rs. Dont forget ***rs are cowards, so chances are your knowledge will make them not risk it and move to a more sure bet! 

I completely agree that it is an embarrassment how often ***rs and rapists escape the hand of the law. Also hastily closing discussions about making misogyny a crime is another missed opportunity. However, most of us tend to forget that the Judicial system, including the crown prosecution service, can only be as good as the evidence presented. It is the police that collects these.

I have nothing against the police, and I am sure the vast majority of coppers are lovely people that take their work seriously. But, equally, we all have witnessed examples where a minority of them have demonstrated textbook cases of discriminatory behaviour to women, low income/education members of the public, BAME members. In the light of what we all saw a couple of weeks ago, misogyny and sexism might be institutionalised, or the very least go unchallenged in UK in 2021!!! So I have my doubts if everybody within the police will be acting equally decisively following a complaint from a member in the lifestyle..... 

Indeed eyemblacksheep I also agree ,  we need to establish a consensus about a way of conducting ourselves. 

In the end, like any other changes in our culture, a new ethos, a new practising code of conduct, requires the vast majority of us to keep practising it in our daily lives.

I suppose any sociologist can also tell us that a vital ingredient for a new ethos is those energetic souls, the likes of many of you here, that are vocal and invest their energy and time taking the lead. While for what it worths, the rest of us remain prepared to offer them our support, moral, verbal, intellectual and more when [not if!] they will be inevitably challenged.

So guess what has been already created here as a lively forum with messages and threads about the topic that could be a forum for people to debate is already a great thing. 

I am not particularly active on sites. I need to invest quite some time in my work and other general community activities. I did pick up while reading the messages that in other sites, the ethos of speaking up isn't yet there, which is a pity. Then I also noticed that people like Dragonflyover are prepared to remain active there. Hopefully, together with some good energetic people from that site, a similar environment can be facilitated with time. 

I think I better go back to my cage now and take some time before I get back out again cause I am running behind workwise.

 

Best Wishes, Everybody!

[ey****]

Sometimes one of the things is recognising when it is ***.   There's a lot of for example... "real subs" / "real slaves" / "real Dominants" kinda discourse which can pressure folk into things they're not happy with because they think it's how they should be and consent through *** is not consent.

This is before we even get into different forms of emotional blackmail.  

[Deleted Member]

Sounds like *** and narcissism to me - ***

[RosesHaveThorns75]

12 hours ago, Glasgowguy1991 said:

Also need to realise that breaches of consent are crimes especially in Scotland where the law is continuous consent i.e. consent must be given in real time at every stage and it can not be implied it must be given and ambush or pressure consent are classed as *** in Scotland

So the law seems to be much clearer in Scotland 🤔 they sound ahead of the English law where I've recently heard of "coercive control" where I'm studying bits of Law myself being relatively new!! Won't help much if something happens & circles just close up against people 💀😬💀

[Deleted Member]

The whole subject and those who criticize and judge here are all a bunch of HYPOCRITES!

[ey****]

14 minutes ago, HornyForU said:

The whole subject and those who criticize and judge here are all a bunch of HYPOCRITES!

how so? enlighten us?

[Deleted Member]

7 hours ago, Rock21RosesAndRopes said:

So the law seems to be much clearer in Scotland 🤔 they sound ahead of the English law where I've recently heard of "coercive control" where I'm studying bits of Law myself being relatively new!! Won't help much if something happens & circles just close up against people 💀😬💀

How many realistically are likely to go to the police? A) because of risk of being outed and B) in the UK at least actual cases for sexual harassment/***/*** are at rock bottom.

[Deleted Member]

52 minutes ago, HornyForU said:

The whole subject and those who criticize and judge here are all a bunch of HYPOCRITES!

Ooh tell us. All ears!

[ey****]

2 minutes ago, Dragonflylover said:

How many realistically are likely to go to the police? A) because of risk of being outed and B) in the UK at least actual cases for sexual harassment/***/*** are at rock bottom.

This is actually a major issue.  And also important to understand why it creates a winless situation

Person A makes an allegation against Person B

Person C suggests it can't be that serious, else they would have gone to the police

Person A goes to the police.  There are several possible outcomes

(i) is that they don't take it seriously - which causes the person to lose faith in the police and causes Person C to say "it can't have been that serious if the police weren't interested"

(ii) is that they do take it seriously - however - there are several points of the justice system where this can fall over. 

If Person B admits to doing wrong then, depending on the incident, they may well just receive a caution. But if they do not accept a caution then it goes through the legal system where intent has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

And here is the punchline. Let's say the thing goes all the way to a court and the court cannot agree in the whole beyond reasonable doubt criteria.  Then it ends in not guilty (although 'not proven' is a charge in Scotland) and what people hear when this returns not guilty is "the victim made it up"

And a lot of the ***rs know this.  So it becomes important for people within the community to kinda understand the situation better - that they can't throw someone in jail, or prosecute someone, or give them a caution.  But, what they can do - is ask them not to come to events. To take a time out.  To address the behaviour.  That even if it all was just a genuine accident that it's still affected someone else and this is something which needs to be dealt with.  That if someone IS making up accusations, then they may need to be dealt with.

Of course. A lot isn't always so black and white.  But I think there's still way to be supportive even if a final outcome everyone is happy with cannot be delivered. 

[RosesHaveThorns75]

2 hours ago, Dragonflylover said:

How many realistically are likely to go to the police? A) because of risk of being outed and B) in the UK at least actual cases for sexual harassment/***/*** are at rock bottom.

Yeah I'm like vunrible adult who's had shite & inequalities all my life But it Dosnt stop me wanting to & trying to study law/s about these subjects 🤔 at least I'll have some idea/s when the law is being broken even if I can't prove it!! 😬 even the top legal teams in the world struggle with the "burden of proof" stuff & I'm just a layperson ffs 💀☹️💀 In the past I didn't have a clue whatsoever about even quite basic laws just a gut feeling that shit I was being told was lies & possibly illegal too!! I have faith & other stuff to protect me I don't rely on it  too heavily because the systems of law are made by the rich & powerfull not for ***ps like me!!! But being blind to the law seems almost as bad so Damned either way 💀🙏💀