submission versus subjugation

[Deleted Member]

Many of young or novice kinksters are confusing submission with subjugation.
The key premise of a Dominant / submissive relationship is that the person on bottom is willingly giving up control. This is submission. When a “Dominant” is demanding control. Extorting control. That’s subjugation. And that’s not what we are about. Consent is key. So if you find yourself being ***d to surrender you aren’t a submissive. You are being ***d.
And as a reminder. After care is important.

[DeviantInside]

I've said many times. Dominance isn't making someone submit, it's making them WANT to submit. And you do that by being the type of person they would want to submit to, that has earned that respect and trust and that they feel safe enough to submit to.

[DarkArts1066]

Sir-or-Daddy

Thank you - for making what I consider to be the most important, relevant and eloquent post on this site.

I get a lot of messages from young submissives and littles, who clearly have no idea of what their particular role should entail - or, how to manage their own safety when seeking a Dom, Daddy or DaddyDom.

This worries me massively.

I have had an issue for some time with some of the posts on here, mostly by young women, who are seeking a ‘DaddyDom’ or a ‘Dom’ or some kind of controlling figure …. Without the first clue of what they are actually asking for, expecting, or are likely to get.
There are many respectable, responsible, and decent people on this site…. but there are also, as there are on every site like this, chancers and fakers who are looking for easy targets - victims, if you will.

Your differentiation between submission and subjugation is perfect - and I have been struggling to find the words to define what you have put so perfectly.

So -
Please, people, consider that, in order to be in a Dominant/submissive relationship - to ANY degree, it is ALWAYS the sub that rubber stamps the rules of play - NOT the Dominant.
Yes. There has to be negotiation and agreement, but the sub sets the rules.
And any Dominant that believes otherwise is labouring under a false sense of identity… and is potentially dangerous.

I have witnessed, many years ago, a Dom and sub at a private party, where the sub was clearly there for the Dom’s’ pleasure… and not in her own comfort zone.
He (the Dom) spent the evening engaging various guests to perform sex acts with his partner for the evening…
She was clearly not enjoying the experience - which seemed to heighten his enjoyment and pleasure.
In the end, several of us encouraged him to leave and provided comfort and protection to her as he did so…. And once he had gone it transpired that he was abusive and had coerced her into going to the event and giving herself to anyone who wanted her, upon threat of punishment (and not in a good way) by ‘him’ .

Consent is everything between two (or more) people.
There is no grey area here.

Please, be safe, above all else, and enjoy your time in kink.
If you have a bad experience, ther really is no turning back.

[Deleted Member]

Thank you! I'm a submissive and I've found it is quite a lot of fake Dom/Domme out there who believe they are owed or even a sub should be submissive for the simple that that they themselves are the "dominant" and have no say in anything. When the truth is subs hold just as much power as the Dom. And submission is a gift and privilege because as a sub I'm choosing to submit to because you've proven yourself trustworthy, I feel safe and comfortable enough to be in such a powerless position. Being a Dom/Domme isn't about doing what ever you want and not caring for or about your sub, it's the opposite really, you care for them so much so that you never go near their hard limits and shoft limits are gentle pushed over time. The fact is most Dom/Domme want to motivate and improve their sub's life and oftentimes play(sex) is a small part of that dynamic, even in 24/7 play. Consent and understanding is the foundation for any dynamic. No matter what kind of Dom/Domme you are a willing partner who consented to whatever play, etc is the only true satisfying dynamic.

[Jo****]

So how would you describe someone who is dominant, but also craves being dominated by an equally or more dominate partner. Assuming all parties are consentual?

[Ad****]

This is an interesting perspective. Although it feels like it may be a bit alienating to some people who prefer a different dynamic. Something doesn't feel quite right about telling people what they do is fake or wrong if it's what they like or what their looking for. People are different and desire is a spectrum. Am I wrong?

[Ad****]

An example might be a person who is a sub, a brat, and a masochist. Maybe they are strong willed and stubborn, but have a desire to be subdued by someone with the willpower to take control. Maybe they want to be corrected and punished, not coddled and pampered. Any thoughts on that?

[Deleted Member]

2 hours ago, Adventure101 said:

An example might be a person who is a sub, a brat, and a masochist. Maybe they are strong willed and stubborn, but have a desire to be subdued by someone with the willpower to take control. Maybe they want to be corrected and punished, not coddled and pampered. Any thoughts on that?

That's still them consenting to that dynamic and treatment. What the OP clearly describe is forcing, making your sub, brat, etc doing something they don't want, isn't their kink, clearly makes them uncomfortable because to you they have no choice, that's the problem. Not once was the kind of play or difference in types of dynamic questioned but consent. Plenty of sub's(etc) kinks are r*pe play, ***ings, slave/master and thats great because they want it, they consent to it. The issue us when Dom/Domme(etc) don't "allow" first safe word because the sub has no say, take no pleasure after care. Even with degrading, it's a certain level of *** that the receiver enjoys and the line is trauma. No is questioning dominance or need to submissive. It's when the sub as no choice, that's the problem because it's all bout choices. That's what this is discussing.

[Deleted Member]

2 hours ago, JohnnyUtah said:

So how would you describe someone who is dominant, but also craves being dominated by an equally or more dominate partner. Assuming all parties are consentual?

That my love makes you a switch. You are dominant, a Dom and if you met someone more so than yourself you'd be a submissive for them. You are both, your primary is Dom but you can be submissive for the right one. You are a switch.

[Deleted Member]

2 hours ago, Adventure101 said:

An example might be a person who is a sub, a brat, and a masochist. Maybe they are strong willed and stubborn, but have a desire to be subdued by someone with the willpower to take control. Maybe they want to be corrected and punished, not coddled and pampered. Any thoughts on that?

As someone that does prefer a stricter, heavier hand.. I would say that it is still easily confused with *** and once youve given yourself over to that position of ***, it is difficult to separate from the ***r. Safe words are a thing, physical ques are also a thing. But primarily it is trusting that i am SAFE with my dom. If i am unable to give my ques, they should be able to see if a situation is going to far to affect my mental health or physical wellbeing. Likewise, heavy punishment/correction ought to be balanced out with praise/affection (not necessarily coddled/pampered). I think the key wordage from OP is "extorting control"... Coercing or manipulating your sub to exert power over them and bring about their submission is very toxic and dangerous.

[Me****]

2 hours ago, Adventure101 said:

An example might be a person who is a sub, a brat, and a masochist. Maybe they are strong willed and stubborn, but have a desire to be subdued by someone with the willpower to take control. Maybe they want to be corrected and punished, not coddled and pampered. Any thoughts on that?

I think there is a slight misunderstanding. Even in your example there are fundamental ground rules. It is discussed that submission is earned through their Dom "forcing" them to submit. I dont believe he is saying that brat play, masochism, or even cnc is wrong. I believe that what he is trying to say, and I may word this poorly, is that a dominant/submissive relationship is that even when a submissive puts up a fight before releasing their consent, such as in brat play, that they still do want to give their consent at some point. Now they may not bend over exactly when their dominant wants them to, they make them work for it, often times repeatedly. But in the end they still do want to be dominated. Which is different from what he is saying is wrong in his perspective. Which is that newer members to this community, those who havent gone over everything and dont know exactly what they want and what dynamic they want, are ***d into giving more submission then what they want. But go along with it because they have made the "commitment" to be submissive to their dominant partner. If that makes sense at all.

[Ad****]

1 hour ago, MedicOne said:

I think there is a slight misunderstanding. Even in your example there are fundamental ground rules. It is discussed that submission is earned through their Dom "forcing" them to submit. I dont believe he is saying that brat play, masochism, or even cnc is wrong. I believe that what he is trying to say, and I may word this poorly, is that a dominant/submissive relationship is that even when a submissive puts up a fight before releasing their consent, such as in brat play, that they still do want to give their consent at some point. Now they may not bend over exactly when their dominant wants them to, they make them work for it, often times repeatedly. But in the end they still do want to be dominated. Which is different from what he is saying is wrong in his perspective. Which is that newer members to this community, those who havent gone over everything and dont know exactly what they want and what dynamic they want, are ***d into giving more submission then what they want. But go along with it because they have made the "commitment" to be submissive to their dominant partner. If that makes sense at all.

I certainly agree that concent is of the upmost importance. And that even those who want a more adversarial approach or crave the power struggle are strongly encouraged to establish concent to even that behavior before hand. And most importantly people need to know that they need to be able to end that, or any other thing, at any time. Safewords or some other form of clear stop communication. I also think its valuable to caution people who are inexperienced away from engaging in that kind of thing, because it can be a slippery slope. That being said, it seems good to be clear it doesn't mean your bad to want that, if you do, just know what your getting into and that it could get sketchy and take all the steps you can to stay safe.

[Ad****]

Thanks for the replies. I just wanted to bring some light to the grey area on the darker side. As to clarify the contrast white and black. Complete submission up front without any resistance on the white side, toxic, dangerous cruelty and coersion on the black side. And to have some feedback on how people can stay safe if they want to engage in riskier power dynamics. Thanks again.

[Me****]

20 minutes ago, Adventure101 said:

I certainly agree that concent is of the upmost importance. And that even those who want a more adversarial approach or crave the power struggle are strongly encouraged to establish concent to even that behavior before hand. And most importantly people need to know that they need to be able to end that, or any other thing, at any time. Safewords or some other form of clear stop communication. I also think its valuable to caution people who are inexperienced away from engaging in that kind of thing, because it can be a slippery slope. That being said, it seems good to be clear it doesn't mean your bad to want that, if you do, just know what your getting into and that it could get sketchy and take all the steps you can to stay safe.

I absolutely agree with that. If I ever came across as saying that things like cnc or power struggles of the like are bad then that was not my intent. People are allowed to like what they like and its entirely on a individualized basis. As long as people are safe about it and it doesnt break any laws im all for people doing whatever makes them happy ^-^

[CopperKnob]

"So if you find yourself being ***d to surrender you aren't a submissive"

Should read

So, if you find yourself being ***d to surrender, whoever is forcing you isn't a Dominant.

Submissives can (like anyone) come across those that expect them to submit and who may attempt to *** matters. That behaviour doesn't make the submissive any less submissive by nature where their submission is inherent.

[Jo****]

3 hours ago, Auset00 said:

That my love makes you a switch. You are dominant, a Dom and if you met someone more so than yourself you'd be a submissive for them. You are both, your primary is Dom but you can be submissive for the right one. You are a switch.

Thanks for the answer! I appreciate it.
I wasn't asking specifically for me, though! 😁
I am familiar with Switches... But my understanding of Switch meant you can be either Dom or Sub based on mood or partner. But I was hoping there was a term for those that ceave to consentually prove they are more Dominant than their partner, but don't actually want someone to just submit?
Like a Domme who won't willingly submit with another dominant.

And yes, I am a switch but primarily I'm kind-of a rare case.

[ey****]

6 hours ago, Adventure101 said:

An example might be a person who is a sub, a brat, and a masochist. Maybe they are strong willed and stubborn, but have a desire to be subdued by someone with the willpower to take control. Maybe they want to be corrected and punished, not coddled and pampered. Any thoughts on that?

yes, easy

they're still voluntarily entering into the situation.

Let's say you're in a bar and someone accidentally knocks into you with their drink - would you bend them over the bar and spank them?  Of course not, that's ***.

If someone is a sub/brat/masochist however and it is in a fetish club and they perhaps deliberately knocked you with a drink - and you have a rapport with them, then maybe bending them over the bar and spanking them is something they would love AND you would enjoy doing (cos sometimes one of the problems with people who play to be punished is that whenever they act up it puts labour onto another person) 

In the latter case, it's still a voluntary set up.   Like, you can't/wouldn't go into a fetish club and start grabbing subs at random and spanking them. 

[Jo****]

@Auset00
For example:
A female dominant who desires to Dominate their partner and will not willingly submit, but consents and desires another domiant partner to try to challenge their dominance and sexually *** them to submit.
Meaning 2 dominants who desire to dominate the other sexual and physically via rough play but will not and can't submit unless ***d to both sexually and physically. All totally consentual on both parties.
Consent is always required and key in any sexual act. This can sometimes seem like one party is not consenting, especialy if the act of submission isn't unwelcome, but resisted due to an individual's psychological boundaries which is relevent to the topic being discussed. I feel it should be the goal in any sexual relationship D/S or not to know your partners limits and have an understanding of their psychology so you can direct and aid them to push past those boundaries they instinctually resist to achieve fulfillment.


And yes...You are correct. I am a switch that lean very heavily Dominant. I am also a particular type of Voyuer which I have been told is labeled a Director or Architect.

As a result, with my GF who is Bisexual and generally a sub leaning switch with men, but extremely dominant with women, I am Dominant most times but do switch if the mood strikes her.
I also enjoy crafting and orchestrating scenes between her and other women with psychological compaonemts that are based on her specific kinks and desires. I get pleasure from watching her desires and kinks that I can't fufill as a man actualized in ways she may not consider.
Her desires revolve around dominating a woman that is dominate herself who will challenge her dominance and try her best to *** her submit. They usually involve a sexual rivalry or power struggle between two dominants. Again, though consent is the key. She has hard limits on behavior such as biting, face slapping, and acts that draw ***, put enjoys S/M dynamics from both sides.
All I can say is individual kinks are multilayered and complicated, but if consent (of sound mind and not due to PTSD from ***) is given, then that is up to the parties involved to judge what is and isn't appropriate.

[Jo****]

5 hours ago, MedicOne said:

I think there is a slight misunderstanding. Even in your example there are fundamental ground rules. It is discussed that submission is earned through their Dom "forcing" them to submit. I dont believe he is saying that brat play, masochism, or even cnc is wrong. I believe that what he is trying to say, and I may word this poorly, is that a dominant/submissive relationship is that even when a submissive puts up a fight before releasing their consent, such as in brat play, that they still do want to give their consent at some point. Now they may not bend over exactly when their dominant wants them to, they make them work for it, often times repeatedly. But in the end they still do want to be dominated. Which is different from what he is saying is wrong in his perspective. Which is that newer members to this community, those who havent gone over everything and dont know exactly what they want and what dynamic they want, are ***d into giving more submission then what they want. But go along with it because they have made the "commitment" to be submissive to their dominant partner. If that makes sense at all.

To put it in perspective... and I fully agree with you...
If my partner is playing with another woman and she consents to rough play with a hard limit on biting and face slapping, I must respect those boundaries, even if I don't see any harm or reason for them or desire her to engage in that kind of play. If in the heat of the moment I then encourage or provoke the other woman to bite her or slap her face and she attempts to resist or uses a safe word to stop the scene and ignore that or worse hold her down against her will and allow the engagement to continue with more biting and face slapping, because I think it's hot, that is total subjugation.
However, If the other woman grabs her hair and spank her hard and repeatedly to make her submit, despite any resistance orb and reaction to the ***... that may seem negative, abusive, or nonconsentual, I know those acts (despite how she reacts or it appears) are all part of her consentual desires and that if at any point it moves past her comfort zone that she will use a safe word to inform me and the other woman that her limits have been reached.
Think of submission the same way as tapping out in a UFC match...
Both participants consent to engaging in a contest of wills and power with pre-established rules. Neither excepts the other to pull out a gun and shoot them or grab a sword and cut them... but they expect and anticipate being punched, kicked, kneed and put in ***ful joint locks, to gain submission. If the rules are broken the referee calls the match and maybe warns the infractor to not break the rules again and asks the other fighter if he is OK with continuing the match by the rules. If he says no... then it stops... but if one fighter submits by tapping out because the other has made them do so by the rules then that is consnetual submission... the fighter that submits doesn't expect his opponent to then continue to beat them into ***ness after they tap or continue to inflict *** at that point because those weren't the rules/limits they consented to.
How a person behaves in scene is not always indicative of non-consent and maybe part of their desires. R*pe fantasies are perfect example of willing consent to be put into a physically and psychologically traumatic experience to get a certain gratifying outcome.

[ey****]

I think often a simplest ways - that even in a CNC kind of situation
the first C stands for 'consensual' 

the person has still consented to being in the situation 

[Deleted Member]

Dominance and domineering are two completely different things.........one comes with consent.......one does not.

[Deleted Member]

The very first lesson I was taught as a newbie was never to use honorifics with a Dominant, unless I had actually offered my submission. (Or if I had decided that I wished to show extreme respect to someone who had otherwise earned it - but it was my decision to do that.) My friends insisted on drilling that message into my brain, thank goodness! (I was a scared newbie, and some sought to be abusive.)

Just the other day (elsewhere), a Dom flat-out demanded that I call him "Sir". I explained that my friends had taught me not to (they're good friends). He became belligerent. "They're not here. I am. You will say it RIGHT NOW!!"

I may have been shaking when I did it, but I immediately hung up. I didn't consent to being spoken to like that. This happens consistently to newbie subs. (I had it occur several times.) Just shows what that person is truly about...

[Ja****]

Yesterday at 02:50 AM, tongue-tied-one said:

The very first lesson I was taught as a newbie was never to use honorifics with a Dominant, unless I had actually offered my submission. (Or if I had decided that I wished to show extreme respect to someone who had otherwise earned it - but it was my decision to do that.) My friends insisted on drilling that message into my brain, thank goodness! (I was a scared newbie, and some sought to be abusive.)

Just the other day (elsewhere), a Dom flat-out demanded that I call him "Sir". I explained that my friends had taught me not to (they're good friends). He became belligerent. "They're not here. I am. You will say it RIGHT NOW!!"

I may have been shaking when I did it, but I immediately hung up. I didn't consent to being spoken to like that. This happens consistently to newbie subs. (I had it occur several times.) Just shows what that person is truly about...

You have some good friends there. I’m happy you were able to stand up for yourself. Someone insisting that there is only one true way of dominance or submission is a massive red flag.

[DD****]

Now roleplay willing *** is a thing. But only ever doing so with absolute permission and a definitive safe word. Yes after care is an absolute must.

[kc****]

This is the kind of stuff I want to learn
Ty for this thread. I'm new and want to explore, but am so hesitant.