Another gendered kick in the teeth Question.....

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, Finally_Jen said:

Exactly and someone has that choice. Be it choosing or transitioning to... they are still a woman. I wish we had a dislike button for a comment such as yours tbh. If you can't see that someone who transitions from male to female IS a woman and identifies as such, please don't bother commenting with such a closed mind. 9

Just reread my comment, sorry, I should not have said you were very wrong. It has become a very complex issue. I have a good friend who is transitioning and I am really trying to understand all the ins and outs. It is a changing world and sometimes it gets uncomfortable trying to understand and not judge. 

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, Finally_Jen said:

Exactly and someone has that choice. Be it choosing or transitioning to... they are still a woman. I wish we had a dislike button for a comment such as yours tbh. If you can't see that someone who transitions from male to female IS a woman and identifies as such, please don't bother commenting with such a closed mind. 9

No, scratch that, you are very wrong!! You are someone who loves the sound of it's own voice. You seem very wrapped up into the woke agenda. I have a very open and experienced mind which gives me far more insight into the world than your blinkered vision. You try to show off some sort of expertise but you're not even an expert at being alive  . You should really leave the hard stuff to people who have actually lived. 

[CopperKnob]

4 minutes ago, BigBear1234 said:

No, scratch that, you are very wrong!! You are someone who loves the sound of it's own voice. You seem very wrapped up into the woke agenda. I have a very open and experienced mind which gives me far more insight into the world than your blinkered vision. You try to show off some sort of expertise but you're not even an expert at being alive  . You should really leave the hard stuff to people who have actually lived. 

You've changed your perspective on a subject based upon the fact that you dislike how your original comment was responded to?
Ironic, because in doing so, you've shown that you do not have an open mind

[kage]

Hi, I think some of the issues can be simplified if the sex someone is born with is used ( in deciding if someone is gay or straight) when the questions involves trans it becomes easier to acknowledge the different category and say the person is attracted to a trans man or or trans woman, I also don't think liking feminine men when someone is a girl makes them gay or liking masculine women when someone is man makes them gay, the issue would also become more complex if someone is asked to define what is masculine and what Is femine, I think objective meaning for words are necessary in a society for communication to be possible, words become meaningless when they can mean different things to different people, It's a complex and tried to answer without saying anything potentially triggering, hope i did okay and that helps with your question

[Je****]

4 minutes ago, BigBear1234 said:

No, scratch that, you are very wrong!! You are someone who loves the sound of it's own voice. You seem very wrapped up into the woke agenda. I have a very open and experienced mind which gives me far more insight into the world than your blinkered vision. You try to show off some sort of expertise but you're not even an expert at being alive  . You should really leave the hard stuff to people who have actually lived. 

Thank you for showing yourself here. 

Referring to me as an It too. Bravo. Hope you feel good for me trying to understand and get clarity from a wide audience 

[Deleted Member]

5 minutes ago, BigBear1234 said:

No, scratch that, you are very wrong!! You are someone who loves the sound of it's own voice. You seem very wrapped up into the woke agenda. I have a very open and experienced mind which gives me far more insight into the world than your blinkered vision. You try to show off some sort of expertise but you're not even an expert at being alive  . You should really leave the hard stuff to people who have actually lived. 

While I don't want to get in these types of discussions, someone who lived as long should have read enough academic philosophy to know your argument is a fallacy called "appeal to age" and "appeal to authority". Jesus Christ people is formal logic not discussed anymore

[Erebus]

4 minutes ago, kage said:

Hi, I think some of the issues can be simplified if the sex someone is born with is used ( in deciding if someone is gay or straight) when the questions involves trans it becomes easier to acknowledge the different category and say the person is attracted to a trans man or or trans woman, I also don't think liking feminine men when someone is a girl makes them gay or liking masculine women when someone is man makes them gay, the issue would also become more complex if someone is asked to define what is masculine and what Is femine, I think objective meaning for words are necessary in a society for communication to be possible, words become meaningless when they can mean different things to different people, It's a complex and tried to answer without saying anything potentially triggering, hope i did okay and that helps with your question

Hi Kage,

While I’m not disrespecting your views on this…. I do have one question what if the person finds out after they have slept with a trans woman that that person was trans? I’m not saying that is the case of what happened with this young man in chat but there are so many variables here!

Attraction can be on so many levels not just how someone looks and believing a person to be a woman rather than trans would you still have the same opinion?

 

Sorry Jen I know this is a diversion of your origional post but it's what came to mind as I read the comment.

[Erebus]

I'm sorry all...... I am no longer engaging with the troll!

[Je****]

1 minute ago, Erebus said:

Hi Kage,

While I’m not disrespecting your views on this…. I do have one question what if the person finds out after they have slept with a trans woman that that person was trans? I’m not saying that is the case of what happened with this young man in chat but there are so many variables here!

Attraction can be on so many levels not just how someone looks and believing a person to be a woman rather than trans would you still have the same opinion?

 

Sorry Jen I know this is a diversion of your origional post but it's what came to mind as I read the comment.

The forum post is for genuine and respectful comments and questions to learn its a valid thing to ask 😊

 

[Ch****]

We are all unique. There is no 100% accurate human being. Just because you are born to a certain sex doesen't mean your brain is wired that way, it's all variation. How you choose to live life is up to you. There will always be disagreement to this subject. Others who want to tell you that you are wrong don't live your life, so to them it's strange and doesen't make sense. But that's how life is, we all can't agree on everything

[Deleted Member]

I’d recommend to everyone who hasn’t read it yet to read Perv by the amazing psychologist Jesse Bering where he breaks down in a really fun to read way how human sexuality manifests itself in millions of ways in the billions of us. I’m a few pages here also looks into how we become who we are as a combination of what physical body we have, who we feel we actually are, and whether we are attracted to the opposite gender, the same one, or both. A person can be any combination of each of these aspects and that’s really the answer to your question. Read the book, it’s one of the best books on human sexuality out there 😊

[Deleted Member]

2 hours ago, BigBear1234 said:

You are very wrong. What makes a woman is that she is born with ovaries, a womb, that special chromosome. Anything after that is a choice. I have no issue with people who transition. I applaud it, if it is what makes you. God knows there is enough crap going on to ruin happiness. It is all the ridiculous labels bandied around like flags of honour.

That 'special chromosome' is also present in men with Klinefelters Syndrome, it doesn't make them female though. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Ar****]

You're not wrong at all Jen.

I lived and worked as my alter-ego (and ugh I hate that term but I don't know what else to use) Gloria on-and-off for a few years, and still went out socialising as her long after I'd left employment where it was a necessity. She had her own personality traits, thought processes and views on subjects which oft differed to mine - in some ways she was a character I created, but in many more important ways she was the embodiment of my female aspects and persona. Dependant upon who I'm around, those aspects can still show much more prominently than they otherwise might, for example when I was dating my girlfriend two partners ago - she had considered herself gay until we got together (and ultimately realised she still was which is why our relationship ended), but in her words it was my female energy which attracted her to me and made her fall for me.

Thing is, even when I'm embracing my feminine aspects whilst dating a gay woman, or on a night out in full gear as Gloria, or am out shopping in town presenting as male bumping into and chatting with a work colleague who only knows me and therefore still treats me as Gloria - I'm still male. I know this. I used to wonder in my ***s, ask myself if I were a gay woman in a man's body, but I've known for most of my life that I've no interest in taking it any further. I have many non-binary aspects so perhaps I'm not a great example. I'm definitely fully in agreement with you though, I've seen for myself first-hand far too many examples to agree with the idea that it's all down to how somebody dresses and acts.

[so****]

Omg these kinds of topics are so sensitive lol even though they shouldn't be. People should be able to speak freely as long as it's civil & respectful, of course. However, I've learned that only one point of view is allowed nowadays. Only one type of opinion is permitted nowadays. There's been many in the lesbian community who've been de-platformed & attacked as a "terf" just for defending females, & that is both scary & very alarming. My *** is one such lesbian, so I suppose I am biased. The whole gender conversation needs to be had, I agree. However, we must allow everyone to speak. All opinions should be allowed as long as they're respectful. Just remember: be respectful & be kind🌹To everyone, no matter their opinion.

[kage]

1 hour ago, Erebus said:

Hi Kage,

While I’m not disrespecting your views on this…. I do have one question what if the person finds out after they have slept with a trans woman that that person was trans? I’m not saying that is the case of what happened with this young man in chat but there are so many variables here!

Attraction can be on so many levels not just how someone looks and believing a person to be a woman rather than trans would you still have the same opinion?

 

Sorry Jen I know this is a diversion of your origional post but it's what came to mind as I read the comment.

Doesn't change my answer, said person would have had sex with the believe the partner was a cis woman hence straight, if said person then finds out he is attracted to trans women then it would make him a person attracted to trans women as a different category would have to be opened for that other than gay or straight, ( the core of my argument remains if everything is subjective then nothing has objective meaning , if there is no objective meaning then communication is impossible

[Deleted Member]

15 minutes ago, kage said:

Doesn't change my answer, said person would have had sex with the believe the partner was a cis woman hence straight, if said person then finds out he is attracted to trans women then it would make him a person attracted to trans women as a different category would have to be opened for that other than gay or straight, ( the core of my argument remains if everything is subjective then nothing has objective meaning , if there is no objective meaning then communication is impossible

Please don't talk about philosophy of language unless you can provide articles for your arguments. Language and communication (and by extension meaning of proper names is much more complex than subjective ). For some reason everyone thinks that their philosophical opinions hold any value even though they're not a trained philosopher in a specific field.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, Erebus said:

Hi Kage,

While I’m not disrespecting your views on this…. I do have one question what if the person finds out after they have slept with a trans woman that that person was trans? I’m not saying that is the case of what happened with this young man in chat but there are so many variables here!

Attraction can be on so many levels not just how someone looks and believing a person to be a woman rather than trans would you still have the same opinion?

This is a really good point - my first ever exposure to a trans individual was some 30 years ago, when one of my best friends introduced me to his girlfriend Vicky. When I met her I was quite surprised he was dating her as I thought she was quite unattractive - I didn't verbalise it at the time but I would have said "mannish".  A few months later he discovered she was in fact a post-operative trans woman which made perfect sense to me. He was shocked and frankly torn since he was a straight man. It took him many years and therapy to really come to terms with it, and over time he came to identify as bisexual, although he never really had a gay relationship, just some play experiences with men. 

Personally I do find myself occasionally sexually attracted to trans women but only extremely feminine ones. Nicole Maines from Supergirl is one that always springs to mind. I'm simply not attracted to masculine features - whether that be in natal women or trans women, and as a result have never had any kind of sexual experience with a trans woman, because the closer I get, generally, the more they come to look masculine. It's very expensive to convincingly transition and remove any evidence of masculinity.  

And I would prefer not to ever find myself, as my friend did, in a sexual relationship with a transgender individual without being forewarned because for me that breaks a key requirement of any relationship - kinky or otherwise - which is informed consent. While I can understand someone's need and desire to identify as a woman socially, I think in a relationship with the potential to become sexual this is something that must be discussed, since you have to consider your potential partner's needs and desires also.  

The point is - it is a complex area and sexuality, sexual orientation and gender are definitely not completely separate topics, they are very much intersected. There is certainly evidence that some young gay people end up identifying as trans because it seems a more acceptable / palatable option to their family/friends than simply being homosexual/lesbian which is still far more stigmatised in many places. 

 

[Erebus]

4 minutes ago, MrCasey69 said:

This is a really good point - my first ever exposure to a trans individual was some 30 years ago, when one of my best friends introduced me to his girlfriend Vicky. When I met her I was quite surprised he was dating her as I thought she was quite unattractive - I didn't verbalise it at the time but I would have said "mannish".  A few months later he discovered she was in fact a post-operative trans woman which made perfect sense to me. He was shocked and frankly torn since he was a straight man. It took him many years and therapy to really come to terms with it, and over time he came to identify as bisexual, although he never really had a gay relationship, just some play experiences with men. 

Personally I do find myself occasionally sexually attracted to trans women but only extremely feminine ones. Nicole Maines from Supergirl is one that always springs to mind. I'm simply not attracted to masculine features - whether that be in natal women or trans women, and as a result have never had any kind of sexual experience with a trans woman, because the closer I get, generally, the more they come to look masculine. It's very expensive to convincingly transition and remove any evidence of masculinity.  

And I would prefer not to ever find myself, as my friend did, in a sexual relationship with a transgender individual without being forewarned because for me that breaks a key requirement of any relationship - kinky or otherwise - which is informed consent. While I can understand someone's need and desire to identify as a woman socially, I think in a relationship with the potential to become sexual this is something that must be discussed, since you have to consider your potential partner's needs and desires also.  

The point is - it is a complex area and sexuality, sexual orientation and gender are definitely not completely separate topics, they are very much intersected. There is certainly evidence that some young gay people end up identifying as trans because it seems a more acceptable / palatable option to their family/friends than simply being homosexual/lesbian which is still far more stigmatised in many places. 

 

I totally agree this is a very complex and interesting discussion and you make some very interesting points as well!

In a previous comment I talked about the changing world, I am not going to diminish the terrible stigmatisation that has occurred in the past with many of the minority groups we have been discussing, I would like to think the world is a better place in that respect but it has a long way to go! As has already been proved in this thread.

[dirtibi]

Surely part of the problem is persisting with labels about sexuality. Gay, straight… those labels relate to a binary gender choice. The reality is much more nuanced and individual. Boiling it down to ‘does that make you gay or straight’ is missing the point. Society will catch up… eventually.

[Deleted Member]

33 minutes ago, dirtibi said:

Surely part of the problem is persisting with labels about sexuality. Gay, straight… those labels relate to a binary gender choice. The reality is much more nuanced and individual. Boiling it down to ‘does that make you gay or straight’ is missing the point. Society will catch up… eventually.

I don't believe that's true. The vast majority of people sit very firmly and comfortably within the binary. Non binary gender identification accounts for typically 5% or less, and LGB accounts for around 10%. These figures come from the LGBT+ Pride 2021 Global Survey.  Personally I think the figures for NB are currently inflated as it's increasingly trendy to be seen as NB and many who would traditioinally identify as gay are flocking to that banner as it's a place where people who feel alienated can come together with less stigma. 

But the vast majority of people are happily male/female and straight.  The idea of gender as a "spectrum" is simply a comforting story. It implies a nice even spread across different "flavours" of gender and sexuality - the reality remains that gender is fundamentally binary with a few outliers.  It's a bell curve not a spectrum. 

[ey****]

one thing about figures

a lot of people who say they are straight or tick a binary gender, aren't.   The reason being could be their own denial, or their own lack of understanding or support

one of the reasons figures have increased in recent years isn't because people 'flock' but because there is now more openness, communication and understanding - but there are also still a lot of people who are 'in the closet' for whatever reason as there is still a lot of stigma, from family, friends, workplaces, society.

Add in - there are so many complex scenarios.   For example, there might be a guy who is straight who masturbates over the thought of sucking cock even if they'd never do it - and that's an example of where things are somewhat of a spectrum.  Because then there is someone else who would find that a total turn off even the thought - and someone who maybe, might, in certain circumstances (the whole "my Mistress told me to")
 

If you're totally straight, and definitely cis, that is cool.  I am. But, to down play how many people do not - especially in this community - is a gross underestimation

[Deleted Member]

5 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

one thing about figures

a lot of people who say they are straight or tick a binary gender, aren't.   The reason being could be their own denial, or their own lack of understanding or support

one of the reasons figures have increased in recent years isn't because people 'flock' but because there is now more openness, communication and understanding - but there are also still a lot of people who are 'in the closet' for whatever reason as there is still a lot of stigma, from family, friends, workplaces, society.

Add in - there are so many complex scenarios.   For example, there might be a guy who is straight who masturbates over the thought of sucking cock even if they'd never do it - and that's an example of where things are somewhat of a spectrum.  Because then there is someone else who would find that a total turn off even the thought - and someone who maybe, might, in certain circumstances (the whole "my Mistress told me to")
 

If you're totally straight, and definitely cis, that is cool.  I am. But, to down play how many people do not - especially in this community - is a gross underestimation

So what you are saying is that anyone who identifies as LGBT - absolutely we have to accept that, but on the other you're saying that a lot of people who say they are straight CIS are lying to themselves!? 
Seriously though - I would agree that there are likely outliers in both groups - straight/CIS people who are a bit nb/gay whatever, but likewise I am sure there are trans/nb/bi/gay people who identify that way even though in practise they aren't - so IMHO it probably evens out. 
If you want to say there is a "gross underestimation" of the LGBT communities' own figures well you're entitled to that opinion but without evidence it's just your own hunch. 
 

[Ta****]

'gay' is based on what a person is attracted attraction, not on what acts a person has done. Men in some contexts engage some behaviours ('male bonding') but do not become gay.

[TyP99]

As a trans man (who also identifies with non bindery) I believe that what makes someone the gender they are is not how they present or how others perceive them. But it how they identify and live. I identify as a male (with non binary) and use he/they pronouns. I live as a man and therefore I am one

[Deleted Member]

You are a woman. You have female genitalia and X X Chromosomes in your DNA. A trans woman is not a woman. They are a trans woman. If their bones were dug up in a thousand years they would be identified as a man. You can't change facts.