Introduction to Honor

[De****]

“The shortest and surest way to live with honor in the world is to be in reality what we would appear to be.”

- Socrates

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There is, in the world, that which is Right and that which is Wrong. Most interactions and situations do not rise to the level of Right and Wrong, and it would be incorrect to say that they do. But to be honorable, or to have honor, is to work for and do what is Right and fight against and do not do that which is Wrong, even at cost to yourself, because that is the Right thing to do, and to be internally consistent (that is, have integrity) in those endeavors. Period.


One who “is honorable” is one who has a clear definition of Right and Wrong, an understanding of why those beliefs are held, and holds to them with a high degree of consistency. One who has demonstrated such over a period of time is said to “be honorable”.


Closely related to honor is the concept of integrity. Integrity is an internal and external consistency in belief, behavior, and action with regard to one’s Honor and ethical code, especially in the face of adversity. While one’s beliefs may change over time, and it is in fact worrisome if they do not evolve as one gains experience, they should not do so on a whim.


As humans are by nature fallible creatures, perfect integrity is impossible. All people will at some point in their lives, probably at many, fail to provide consistent adherence to their honor and ethical code at the time, either in their beliefs, behavior, or action. At that time, a reasonable judge of integrity is the frequency with which such inconsistencies occur, the severity of them, and the steps (or lack thereof) the person in question takes to amend said breach and to avoid a repeated breach. In fact, one’s actions in response to a breach of integrity are a better judge of one’s integrity than behavior in more normal times.


There are, of course, many possible definitions of “Right” and “Wrong”, which often conflict. honor specifically is not prescriptive and can only be derived implicitly from a code of ethics.


There is, though, a core to any Master's sense of honor, and that is accountability. That is, accepting responsibility for one’s actions (or lack thereof), whether the result is good or bad. That could be as mundane as apologizing for stepping on someone’s foot to accepting genuine blame for a large failure at work. It also means, however, not allowing others to avoid accountability. It means being true to one’s word (even if doing so is otherwise detrimental). A Master is accountable to himself, and to those around him.


Not only is it dishonorable to cheat, lie, or steal it is dishonorable to knowingly allow another to cheat, lie, or steal, and especially so if the cheating, lying, or stealing is committed against you.


If wronged, a Master has a responsibility not of revenge, but of correction. Severe matters are indeed better left to law en***ment, but honor in this sense is the flip-side of accountability: Holding others accountable for their behavior, especially if one is the aggrieved party. That does not require personally punishing someone, simply seeing to it that they are held accountable.

[CopperKnob]

I think that the following are important to note when discussing the OPs thoughts.
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The concept of right/wrong are not black and white. It's important to understand context and circumstances. Without that we van become rigid in our thinking and unable to develop our minds/acceptance of others.
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The use of the word honour means different things to different people and has the ability to be taken to an extreme with HBV. It's a word which I personally would be careful in my use.
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No one is responsible for the actions of others, we cannot control other peoples behaviour. People (in the main) are accountable and responsible for themselves.

[Da****]

I'm curious as to the OP's post intentions. There doesn't seem to be a question or a matter that needs resolving.

[ca****]

Honourable, as in the eye of the beholder......  ?  

1 mans honour is anther's.....

 

I'd be interested to get a feel for some people the OP and others consider to live with honour ...  (in the modern day world)...  

[De****]

5 hours ago, DanTienDomD said:

I'm curious as to the OP's post intentions. There doesn't seem to be a question or a matter that needs resolving.

The intent is to teach. Sharing wisdom, experience, and philosophy that others may find valuable.

[De****]

6 hours ago, callipygian said:

Honourable, as in the eye of the beholder......  ?  

1 mans honour is anther's.....

 

I'd be interested to get a feel for some people the OP and others consider to live with honour ...  (in the modern day world)...  

By definition a principle is “a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behaviour or for a chain of reasoning”. If you agree with or believe something in principle, you agree with the idea in general, although you might not support it in reality or in every situation.

My intention for this post is not to prescribe a specific set of ideals but to provide that foundation, from which ones personal code of ethics can be built, and in my musing it seems that building an "honor code" without accountability, is like building a house of cards on an unstable table.

Of course there are those which most can agree on. Do not lie, do not steal, do not needlessly kill. It is only in a religion, though, that you follow strict rules/dogmas. On the other hand in a philosophy you have to understand the guidelines and discover for yourself the best way to apply it.

Honor is a philosophy that on its turn is based on principles and values and therefore is the global set of concepts that help us navigate our life and make decisions in accordance with those principles and values. The issue here is that those concepts come to us not in a “plain” and “clear” way with a list of what you can and cannot do. It would be rare indeed to see a list of commandments prescribing exactly how one should live or behave. As such this is a rather deep rabbit hole to go down.

[ca****]

I find what you are saying or describing somewhat murky, as in unclear....   or maybe having many potential meanings......   ie global set of principles....  deep rabbit holes are deep by their 'construction' maybe...

But in essence that is what I 'meant' by ones man's honour being another  man's.....   there will be a multitube of response and endings to that sentence.

I wonder historically what human's honour is based upon?   And expect it will depends upon the prevailing circumstances at that time in that human's state of  existence..........

 

Do you have some examples of the wisdom and the experiences you are sharing?

 

 

[De****]

51 minutes ago, callipygian said:

I find what you are saying or describing somewhat murky, as in unclear....   or maybe having many potential meanings......   ie global set of principles....  deep rabbit holes are deep by their 'construction' maybe...

But in essence that is what I 'meant' by ones man's honour being another  man's.....   there will be a multitube of response and endings to that sentence.

I wonder historically what human's honour is based upon?   And expect it will depends upon the prevailing circumstances at that time in that human's state of  existence..........

 

Do you have some examples of the wisdom and the experiences you are sharing?

 

 

The Vikings valued courage, truth, fidelity, discipline, hospitality, self reliance, industriousness, and perseverance. Additionally, dying in battle, sacrificing oneself for king, country, and spoils was the only honorable way to die. This was a major driver for Viking piracy.
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Meanwhile the knights of medieval Europe had another set of principles. The *** and respect of God and the honor of women are core beliefs of the knights of old. Respect towards one's ***rs and respect towards a foe. They valued faith, charity, justice, good judgement, prudence, temperance, resolution, truth, lack of prejudice, diligence, hope, and valor.
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According to Inazo Nitobe's book Bushido, the lives of the samurai warriors were ruled by 7 principles called Bushido. These 7 rules were Righteousness, Loyalty, Honor (This is a circular reference which basically means that death is preferable to non-adherance, and dishonor can only be met with death), Respect, Honesty, Courage and Consistency.
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Many of the moral codes of historical significance share some commonality to one another, though they don't completely agree on many specifics or exercises.
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In modernity it is likely the case that this is still so, but society is a lot more fractured in their thoughts and ideas than we have been in the past, though there are generally pockets of society which form communities of shared values. For example, in practice police officers tend to value their own lives over those of the people whose duty it is to "protect and serve" which, to me, is morally unacceptable, and would thus be dishonorable to behave thusly. There is likely a large proportion of the population that agrees with that, which is why the Uvaldi police department got so much hate for waiting around doing nothing during an active shooting.

[De****]

1 hour ago, callipygian said:

I find what you are saying or describing somewhat murky, as in unclear....   or maybe having many potential meanings......   ie global set of principles....  deep rabbit holes are deep by their 'construction' maybe...

But in essence that is what I 'meant' by ones man's honour being another  man's.....   there will be a multitube of response and endings to that sentence.

I wonder historically what human's honour is based upon?   And expect it will depends upon the prevailing circumstances at that time in that human's state of  existence..........

 

Do you have some examples of the wisdom and the experiences you are sharing?

 

 

Honor is intended to keep all who followed it in agreement with one another while also providing the skills that one needs to survive in a harsh and unforgiving world.
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The codes that those of the past followed made them who they were. These codes were quite similar and most often involved the respect of others and the support of one's central beliefs. These codes rein***d the idea that individuals should stand up for what they believe in and for whom they care and have respect for. Above all, it provides a means to hold oneself and those around you accountable. These codes sculpted individuals into civilized people that could adequately function and pave the way to modern society.

[ca****]

Is modern society honourable?

The honour concept (in my mind) is not something that we hear of on a day to day basis..  ??

[De****]

58 minutes ago, callipygian said:

Is modern society honourable?

The honour concept (in my mind) is not something that we hear of on a day to day basis..  ??

That's like asking is society moral? I don't think anyone has an answer to that. Rarely does such a large collection of individuals have the integrity and consistency to create something wholly good or wholly honorable. An individual may be honorable, or have honor, just as an individual can be moral, or have morals, but modern society is ruled by a code of law, which prescribes very specific behavior those who follow the law while law-abiding, may not be moral or honorable.
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Are you doing what is Right because it is Right or because you *** punishment? Are you willing to accept punishment to do that which is Right, even if the law prescribes otherwise? Can and should you compromise your beliefs?
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I have found that since accountability is largely outsourced to law, there are very few people who are accountable, consistent or responsible to anyone, even themselves to a large degree in modern societies. As such not many could be considered honorable, but it's a very complex philosophical question.

[ca****]

So having said all that what is it you are trying to teach ? via sharing of wisdom and experience.

Do you strive to be honourable?  Is it your 'goal' ??    

Edited August 23 by callipygian

[Da****]

I belive that, on the topic of 'honour', the full original quote (the OP only posted part if it) is a good place to start. It goes something like this:

"The shortest and surest way to live with honor in the world is to be in reality what we would appear to be; and if we observe, we shall find that all human virtues increase and strengthen themselves by the practice and experience of them."

I think meditating on that will bring the best value.

I don't believe honour is related to Right/Wrong, but i cant be 100% sure. All i can say is that on my journey to understand honour, they didn't appear essential in any way. And i don't believe that my journey was the poorer for it. The same with 'integrity'.

The same with the 'by nature fallible creatures, etc.' i just don't feel any of that gets us closer to the original quote. Neither does anything get under the skin of the original quote to make it flower, more. For me.

It could be entirely honourable to steal, lie and cheat, and as i type this I'm drawn to legends that we all know including Alladin, Robin Hood, etc.

I can't see all the comments on the screen to continue commenting, but i do remember one more point. It was about the mention, perhaps by the OP, in an additional comment, about the Vikings.

From what has come fourth from my meditations, regarding honour, the series 'The Last Kingdom', and particularly the character Uhtred.

That's honour in action. Following the Socrates quote.

With love and respect.

[De****]

7 hours ago, callipygian said:

So having said all that what is it you are trying to teach ? via sharing of wisdom and experience.

Do you strive to be honourable?  Is it your 'goal' ??    

Yes, I strive to be honorable. It's core to my beliefs. My main goal is to inspire others to think, and introspect and perhaps also wish to be so.

[Malenko]

💯