Narcissists...what's a sub to do?

[Ch****]

I recently wrote about this on Fetlife...and understand from a little pixie that this may be a future topic of a munch chat here in the future. I'm hoping that this may be useful to someone, so here it is...

It has come up in conversations with friends time and again...relationships with narcissists gone bad. I'll aim to keep this brief, and for the sake of brevity, utilize the perspective within a MF relationship...this is not to say the concepts would not apply within other gender frameworks.
The narcissistic personality is a troubling one in the kink community, as for one, they can be so damn attractive! Women most often say they are attracted to confidence, and narcissistic men likely project this in spades (that they're insecure below the surface is for another writing, perhaps). So, what should you consider if you fall into that trap? One is to know yourself, and I'll use the example of masochistic. There are different types of narcissists out there, with the malignant narcissist being adept at being sadistic.  They enjoy sadism. The masochist must know if they enjoy sadism, or sadistic PLAY.  Kink should be safe, sane, and consensual...a true sadist may struggle with this. Narcissists at their core are deficient in the realm of empathy...a SSC playmate may play a sadistic role but always have your core likes, turn ons, interests and boundaries at heart and mind. Sadism outside a play scenario should not be tolerated...know yourself if you feel differently (and maybe stop reading now...24/7 masochists might well match "well" with a narcissist and have no need for this writing). 
I'll make one other point I hope is useful. Narcissists tend to have a child-like self image under grandiose defenses. That means beneath a confident/arrogant exterior lies a child that wants its needs met...NOW. Think a 5-year-old that sees a cookie. BDSM relationships should be cultivated, and a true dominant should have an instinct to know that learning the specific wants/needs of a potential submissive partner must preclude play. So as finding partners has become increasingly electronic, the "Hi, I want to collar you and have you as my slave" variation as an opening line should be a red flag. It may be an inexperienced "dom" knocking, or it may be a signal that this person doesn't care/lacks the empathy to get to know you. This isn't to knock those into casual, anonymous play...but for those of us that seek kink fun that comes from deep, trusting knowledge of another, it may be a loud signal that this person will never get there with you.  I wish you happy play!
---ChromeDom

[Leisa]

Thank you for writing this. As someone who has gotten involved, thankfully not too far, involved with a couple of narcissistic “Dom/me” (small caps intentional) I can tell suns out there that at the first sign of a red flag run away. If something doesn’t sit right with you in your gut it definitely is not right. There are more then enough Dom/mes out there who are seeking a sub. Stop stressing about finding the perfect Dom/me and relax. He/she will come along and it will be fantastic. I’m still waiting and it’s probably a good thing as I know I’m not ready yet.

[PixieDust]

Thank you 🙏  @ChromeDom for writing this and yes we definitely plan to have a future munch on the topic.  As you know I grew up with a narcissist and have met  and dealt with many since, even more so recently.  They can be addictively intoxicating but yet so manipulative and its only after the fact when you come out the other end, you truly realise how much damage they have done which can often take years to recover from.  My advice is  definitely watch out for red flags and if doesn't seem right, feel right, sit right, it probably isn't, trust your gut and look after you first and foremost.

Thank you again Chrome  😘💗🧚‍♀️

[Deleted Member]

This is so true, but we must never forget it can occur in all walks of life, not just kink, and can apply just as much to all characters, no matter which path one may choose to follow. I've met a few from all sides of the slash,  who are so full of their own self importance, and are quite capable of manipulation words or actions, while at the same time hiding the truth of who they really are until some time/effort has been invested. By then sometimes because of that investment one may then choose even with the obvious flags to keep going, keep investing, thereby digging deeper holes. Toxic is a word that fits well, as some carry that like a second skin, but a skin with camoflage, and many in life, not just kink are exactly that. 

[Deleted Member]

Narcissists are dangerous and not good Dom's. They purposely hunt for ppl they think they can mess with and make things very unsafe. This is a fabulous post, thank you for writing it and I look forward to the munch

[Deleted Member]

7 hours ago, PixieDust said:

Thank you 🙏  @ChromeDom for writing this and yes we definitely plan to have a future munch on the topic.  As you know I grew up with a narcissist and have met  and dealt with many since, even more so recently.  They can be addictively intoxicating but yet so manipulative and its only after the fact when you come out the other end, you truly realise how much damage they have done which can often take years to recover from.  My advice is  definitely watch out for red flags and if doesn't seem right, feel right, sit right, it probably isn't, trust your gut and look after you first and foremost.

Thank you again Chrome  😘💗🧚‍♀️

Omg I was going to ask you if we can do this as a munch and glad it’s going to happen. My last dynamic is one and I still haven’t heal completely and it’s more on the *** side. I find it its my fault in a way I always end up with narcissist/*** types so I hope this would help me 

[Deleted Member]

1 minute ago, Amy4U said:

Omg I was going to ask you if we can do this as a munch and glad it’s going to happen. My last dynamic is one and I still haven’t heal completely and it’s more on the *** side. I find it its my fault in a way I always end up with narcissist/*** types so I hope this would help me 

never your fault amy *hugs*

[lolli-leigh]

fabulous article and the discussion will help enlighten people to the Narrasstic personality types. It took me a long time to realise that my ex husband was a narcasstic xxxx because I maintained everything in our and it almost seemed I was the controlling one. Until I got to point and said enough I need you too help me and he didn't he just emotionally blamed everything on me not being able to cope. Love and hugs too all, 2 years today, I got my own home, application for divorce going in this weekend :) @Amy4Unever is it your fault love and hugs 

[Ch****]

Thanks all for your supportive comments. I'm catching a bit of a trend here, and it may be that people are getting at the concept of "projective identification", which is a hard concept to explain. In it, a narcissist, who has difficulty finding fault in themselves, may nonetheless have a bad feeling about themselves. Instead of making this known, they make a similar comment about their partner. For example, if a narcissist feels bad about their weight, they may then tell their partner, "looks like you put on weight". This vulnerability then gets put on the empathic partner, who now feels bad about their own weight. That's PI. And it feels like "crazy making".

[lolli-leigh]

This totally discribes my ex husband's behaviour @ChromeDom

[Phoenyx]

I don't know it this quite fits the topic.  But, as a Dom, I have had my share of narcissistic drinking buddies.  True, to be a Dom/me requires a certain amount narcissism.  A little bit can be healthy.  But, anything in too great a quantity, even healthy things like vitamins, can be toxic!  Like everything else in the 'D' realm, narcissism must be tightly controlled, lest the monster be unleashed.

We all know that the term narcissism, comes from the legend of Narcissus, who was in love with his own reflection---to the point that all other romantic relationships became secondary.  With that in mind, here are the five types of NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) that I have noticed the most.  Hopefully, these descriptions will help others to spot "red flags":

#1  The Hollow Persona:  These are the folks who seem to cannibalize their entire personality, just to project an image.  There is no "real person" to get to know.  Beneath the superficial, they are a hollow shell, an empty building.  Worse, any puncture of their projected image, may cause them to pop like a balloon.

#2  The Control Freak:  This one is probably the most well-known of the NPD's.  Everything must go according to their plan, their schedule---whether it's a date, a road trip, a night at the bar/pub...  If just one thing does not go according to their plan, they turn into a ball of rage.  Their entire life is unbelievably rigid.  Such a person can make an evening of fun, feel more like a bad day at work.

#3  The Success Obsessed:  To these folks, everything in life is a competition.  And society is their "mirror".  Their job is always the most prestigious (in their opinion).  Every product that they , is the best available (in their opinion).  Any TV show that they watch is "The Best", and every other program is "bubblegum".  Their home/apartment must be a showroom of perfection.  Friends who do not meet certain expectations of "Success", are soon relegated to being "ex-friends".  "Sharing", whether material or emotional, is considered sacrilege!  Yet, they cannot stand meeting anyone who is better at something, than they are (or anything, for that matter).  They are true products of modern capitalist ("Free Market") brainwashing.

#4  The Political Narcissist:  Very much like #3.  Just replace "Success" with extreme, dogmatic political views.  These are the self-appointed "Thought Police"---the purveyors of the "cancel culture".  Or, they could be hyper-religious---viewing religion and politics to be one-in-the-same, believing every biblical legend to be documented fact,  and considering anyone not of their ilk to be a "heathen".  Whatever their extreme, they feel that it is their duty to *** their rigid political/ethical views upon everyone else.  People must adhere to their dictates, to the letter!  Yet, such political narcissists are also extremely ***ful.  Every thought, word, and action must be carefully considered, lest they be "cancelled" themselves.

#5  The Know-It-All:  Little explanation is needed here.  These are the folks who always feel that they're the smartest person in the room.  They are never wrong!  (note sarcasm)  In their minds, everyone else is a dumbshit.  They go through life with the motto: "Those who think that they know everything, are very annoying to those of us that do!"

Of course, a particular narcissist could be more than one of the forms that I mentioned---or all of them.  Plus, this is far from a comprehensive list.  I am sure that folks have noticed many traits that I have failed to mention.  These are just the symptoms that I have noticed the most.  I hope this comes of some help.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Phoenyx

[Alistair1974]

In my experience, 95% percent of people claiming their partner is a narcissist.. they're actually the problem themselves. They're projecting, and using transference, ***ting a picture of what they are which will destroy the person focused upon. They are completely unaware of this though. They're often unaware of quite what the label means, but have done a couple of internet searches, seen a few memes, and recognise certain traits which they perceive as "happening to them" but which in fact they are inflicting upon others.

While this is not always the case.. it is in the majority of ones I've encountered. I've studied Psychology for years... and was married to a lass with a masters in it for nigh on 10 years and she agreed. It's also amazing how people love to attribute the term "Narcissist" to someone who's simply... just a bit of an arse... because again.. they've seen a couple of memes and spotted things they think they recognise.

I would.. absolutely.. recommend not bandying around medical words relating to personality disorders. Statements pertaining to things like someone cognitively "choosing to hunt down victims" etc, are simply not how it works. it's a personality disorder. Not a choice.

Also.. as an add on... using terms like "lacks the empathy to get to know you".. makes no sense. Empathy is the ability to feel what someone else feels because they've experienced it themselves. The term doesn't fit. Again it's using psychology terms to a mass audience who will like as not not understand the meaning behind them, in order to project an appearance of knowledge, but in fact to anyone with understanding of the language, it shows a lack of it.

The above to me... is a massive red flag!

Things like claiming "Hi, I want to collar you and have you as my slave" as a red flag, for an opening line is just simply wrong too. Most guys, and for that matter girls too, have no understanding of the need to create a dynamic first within a relationship. We live in a fast food world and the internet is no different. With dating sites rammed full of one night stand opportunities... this is simply now the way a massive majority see as ok to communicate desires. It may lack intricacy and nuance but.. that's because there's simply been no need for that in most forms of online contact now.

To suggest that this is a red flag.. dangerous etc ... and a trait of a medical personality disorder is just massively out of order in my opinion.

But hey.. that's the thing about opinions. Everyone has them.

[Ch****]

Disclaimer...my qualifications to speak on this topic are only valid within the framework of the American educational and licensing system. Readers from all other countries can/should take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Please feel free to insert any jokes about Americans knowing about pathological narcissism here.

[PixieDust]

18 hours ago, ChromeDom said:

Disclaimer...my qualifications to speak on this topic are only valid within the framework of the American educational and licensing system. Readers from all other countries can/should take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Please feel free to insert any jokes about Americans knowing about pathological narcissism here.

With a Doctorate on the subject matter, I think you are more than qualified to speak on the subject and I, for one, am very happy to see this as a forum topic.  So thank you again for sharing with us all 🙏.... as for jokes, you know me I can never remember the punchline 😋💗😘🧚‍♀️

 

[Deleted Member]

This^^^💗💗

[Phoenyx]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:04 AM, ChromeDom said:

Disclaimer...my qualifications to speak on this topic are only valid within the framework of the American educational and licensing system. Readers from all other countries can/should take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Please feel free to insert any jokes about Americans knowing about pathological narcissism here.

I really wish that it was just a joke.  Unfortunately, our entire American culture seems geared toward making people selfish and narcissistic.  Creative and professional people appear to be especially targeted by this brainwashing.  Is this the result of work environment, advertising, class segregation, or some other source?  Of course, the argument can be made, that the U.S. really has no culture of its own---that it is merely commercialism masquerading as "culture", that it is all just an expression of corporate interests and profits.

Truly, the most blatant example of this brainwashing is American advertising.  Who could forget the "Twix" candy-bar slogan: "Two for me; none for you!"  Or, the "Cheez-it" snack-cracker slogan: "Get your own box!"  "Sharing" has been vilified in American "culture".  Decades ago, American advertisers found that lonely and isolated people tend to more crap that they don't really want or need.  New car ads (by far, the most advertised product on TV) are the worst.  Car ads in America openly promote narcissism, image obsession, and class warfare.

Let's not forget the most toxic of recent developments, "Social Media".  Social media algorithms are deliberately designed to be addictive, and to appeal to a person's most narcissistic tendencies.  All of this damage, just to maximize "screen time".  The corporations don't care.  They are just machines.  A mammoth company no more sees the human toll, than the bulldozer sees the anthill that it plows-under.  Even without the intentional damage that I mentioned, so-called "AI" algorithms still reflect the subconscious attitudes and prejudices of the programmer.  Which, now gets into the toxic atmosphere of America's savage work environment.

We have all witnessed the break-up of some of our favorite rock bands.  Almost always, it is caused by the agent of one of the lead members, saying, "These others are holding you back!"  So it is, in the American professional realm.  Professional ***rs constantly bombard each other with the notion that "less successful" friends are nothing but "impediments", "leeches", "hangers-on", etc, etc, etc...  Selfishness and narcissism are promoted as the only ways to further ones career.

So, if we are going to point fingers, perhaps, we should start by pointing at the real source of this modern psychological pandemic.

[cautiousswitch]

Some thoughts if this does go into a munch.

We recently had a munch about alpha submissives.  From various forum posts it seems that people don't like to apply the term alpha to dominants.  This makes sense considering how often the term gets misused.  I have met a few 'dominants' who boldly declare themselves to be alpha and in so doing convinced me they were anything but.

One alpha may challenge another alpha in a group setting, but real alphas don't live in constant *** of this.  Real alphas don't see the need to declare their alpha-ness.  A narcissistic dominant is more likely to; that is part of what narcissism is about.  I like that the original post said that narcissists project confidence in spades and not that they have it in spades.  There is a difference and that is what you have to look for to avoid the narcissist dominants.

[MoLove2021]

Hi there. I ran across this surfing the web in search of answers to what the hell I went through. I'm still not sure after obtaining a PhD on personality disorders from the school of Google amongst other things. This is a great post. 

I am recovering from a whirlwind of a romantic relationship with not only a "dominant" but a self proclaimed BDSM expert and relationship advisor. I found him after searching through countless podcasts for weeks or even months maybe. He also has a BDSM book that was published and a website that he posts articles giving advice. After listening to his podcasts on repeat for weeks I decided to send him a message letting him know that I really appreciated his podcasts and that they helped me tremendously. Well, that was the beginning of my journey through the process of being duped by someone I regarded with respect. Someone who wrote about the rules and beauty of BDSM. Someone who totally disregarded the rules. Someone who I could kick square in the balls if I ever saw him again.  Someone who ***d his own title of "true experienced dominant", teacher, mentor, writer, BDSM expert to prey on a unsuspecting submissive woman. One who was just beginning her journey into the lifestyle. Now, many many months later I am completely dumbfounded that he was wearing so many masks. It literally still blows my mind that I allowed so much to happen. I was under his spell I s'pose. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by MoLove2021
Missing word

[Phoenyx]

11 hours ago, MoLove2021 said:

I found him after searching through countless podcasts for weeks or even months maybe. He also has a BDSM book that was published and a website that he posts articles giving advice.

Seeing that this person is a "public figure", is there any chance you could mention who it is?  Also, if any Mods are reading this, could you please chime-in, on whether naming this person is publicly allowed?  Perhaps, in lieu of posting his name, perhaps post the name of his published book, or a link to one of his YouTube videos?

@MoLove2021If such a public posting is not allowed, or if you simply wish not to make this public, perhaps you could PM me, with any info.  No, I will not take any action---this is merely for future reference.

Again, for the Mods, I understand that this is a gray area.  Please advise me if I may be stepping over a line with this request.