Is my perception wrong?

[ey****]

Reet - so if you think a woman is not lifting a finger, lazy, not doing enough - then don't message her?  Message someone who looks like they have put the effort in and would put the effort in

It's not hard.

Men should have standards themselves, because the whole "you'll do" thing helps no one.

In fact, 

  3 minutes ago, ace2587 said:

That is a cop out to do nothing.

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exactly - a man not willing to put in the effort to be more appealing, so on is copping out. They are lazy, entitled, and likely to be single forever.  While all of the other guys have better "luck" 

[ac****]

I don’t think all of the other guys have better “luck” than me. I absolutely believe other men are much more skilled in the art of deception and sealing the sexual deal than I am, but it has nothing to do with luck. I’m not interested in deceiving anyone anyways, or maintaining some kind of illusion. All we are talking about is ease.. effort… which side has to jump thru the hoops and which side doesn’t.. I think you know well the answer, but you seem more interested in kissing female ass on this one than admitting the simple truth.

[Th****]

  59 minutes ago, ace2587 said:

It doesn’t matter that all of the men messaging you aren’t your idea of perfect. The simple fact is you have far more opportunities to find a meaningful connection, therefore it is easier.

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Except this isn't the case. The bar for men is so unbelievably low it's absolutely ridiculous yet most refuse to do anything within their actual control in order to better their chances at getting desirable outcomes. They instead blame false, nonexistent reasons on women told to them *by other men* exacerbating their own unhappiness. 

Be a decent human, don't just assume you are but actively take steps towards being a better *whole* human. We aren't talking spending all your free time in the gym or making lots of *** here either. Work on your emotional and mental health, learn how to be happy and satisfied with yourself in solitude. If you're miserable alone, nobody is going to want to join you where you're at. Learn how to have engaging conversations, it's ok to not naturally be great at this but it's a skill that can be developed. Take care of yourself *for* yourself. If others see that you don't care about yourself they're not going to think you're capable of caring about them. The number of men I've seen on any dating or social type platform who are deficient in the most basic of hygiene is quite unsettling. 

Be kind, considerste, respectful, have empathy and emotional regulation skills, a decent grasp on basic boundaries, have moderate abilities to engage in interesting conversation, basic hygiene. *Be* a whole person and treat women like actual whole people. 

The bar is so low. 

[Th****]

"And of course you get the lazy ass "but the ratio...." when that as something has long since been debunked.   If folk keep blaming stuff instead of looking to what would make them more appealing to reply to, to meet, to have sexy fun times with, to take on, etc then they are never going to get what they want instead blaming everyone except taking on any form of responsibility to look or act more appealing" 

@eyemblacksheep there's an issue with that last line of yours though.... "act" more appealing. There's a lot of men who do "act" more appealing and eventually the mask slips. Don't "act" like a decent human *be* a decent human. 

Edited March 5 by ThaliaV

[ac****]

  8 minutes ago, ThaliaV said:

"And of course you get the lazy ass "but the ratio...." when that as something has long since been debunked.   If folk keep blaming stuff instead of looking to what would make them more appealing to reply to, to meet, to have sexy fun times with, to take on, etc then they are never going to get what they want instead blaming everyone except taking on any form of responsibility to look or act more appealing" 

@eyemblacksheep there's an issue with that last line of yours though.... "act" more appealing. There's a lot of men who do "act" more appealing and eventually the mask slips. Don't "act" like a decent human *be* a decent human. 

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Except it is the case… and thru all of your suggesting that I am a miserable and unhappy person and that is the source of these problems we are discussing for me… you didn’t say a single thing contrary to the case. I’m actually very very happy at this point in my life! I know you don’t believe that or care, heck you probably even hope it’s not true. It is tho. So we are still at the point where it is unquestionably easier for women, I think you can see all the other people that have chimed in to agree in a general manner. It’s easier to just accept truth than it is to try to change it to suit your tastes.

[Th****]

  23 minutes ago, ace2587 said:

I don’t think all of the other guys have better “luck” than me. I absolutely believe other men are much more skilled in the art of deception and sealing the sexual deal than I am, but it has nothing to do with luck. I’m not interested in deceiving anyone anyways, or maintaining some kind of illusion. All we are talking about is ease.. effort… which side has to jump thru the hoops and which side doesn’t.. I think you know well the answer, but you seem more interested in kissing female ass on this one than admitting the simple truth.

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Why are you angry with women for problems caused by other men? 

[ac****]

Truth is always better than attacking character as well.

[Th****]

  7 minutes ago, ace2587 said:

Truth is always better than attacking character as well.

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I've not attacked anyone's character and other than my previous comment I haven't spoken about you specifically. If I've said "you" it's been the general "you" if you had feelings come from that perhaps consider sitting with that and unpacking a bit. 

Yes, perhaps I could have worded my question slightly differently, my apologies. 

Why are you apparently so angry with women for problems created by other men? 

Edited March 5 by ThaliaV

[ac****]

  8 minutes ago, ThaliaV said:

Why are you angry with women for problems caused by other men? 

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I’m not angry? Are you? Lol. I’ve been on dating apps for long enough to step into the ring on this discussion.

[ey****]

  19 minutes ago, ThaliaV said:

@eyemblacksheep there's an issue with that last line of yours though.... "act" more appealing. There's a lot of men who do "act" more appealing and eventually the mask slips. Don't "act" like a decent human *be* a decent human. 

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Yes, I agree.

I think I mean kinda... work towards the behaviours which will appeal to the type of people you're willing to attract. 

[CopperKnob]

  4 hours ago, Aman94 said:

Yes I get finding someone that want the same as you but i also think over picky like to the 9 th degree i find to picky and those people annoy the hell out of me. I’m here to try and have fun not just to tell people I’m not interested or they don’t fit what I may want. I’m also here to explore and learn what I want, it may surprise me what I actually want/ or need

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The thing is, when we aren't "picky" and have terrible experiences, which we talk about, the personal responsibility trope gets thrown about by...you guessed it!

[CopperKnob]

  3 hours ago, gemini_man said:

Yeah, now put yourself in the shoes of those ladies who have a mountain of (mostly inappropriate) messages to sift through in the hope of exercising that "choice" - who daily have to put up with vile and abusive messages, who even if they do find someone they think has potential based on their profile and messages and then decide to meet will always have that *** at the back of their mind that they don't truly know the person and they may turn out to not be quite so charming in person as they are on-line and all of a sudden it doesn't seem they have it quite so easy after all, mental gymnastics or not.

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It's not always the vile or abusive messages. It's also the messages that are simply men chatting away to themselves in my inbox with no reference to me, my profile, and have no questions posed. There's literally nothing to respond to.

[ey****]

  36 minutes ago, ace2587 said:

which side has to jump thru the hoops and which side doesn’t.. I think you know well the answer, but you seem more interested in kissing female ass on this one than admitting the simple truth.

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I mean, I think first off as has been repeated the challenges are different.

The issue that men have lower standards isn't the flex you think it is.    Equally if a man thinks their low effort is "jumping through hoops" then it's an indication of the low effort they would put into a relationship and a strong reason why things don't work.

If a man feels a woman is not putting in an effort with her profile, with her online interactions, with anything - then why would he pursue her? That's frankly fucking stupid - and is a big chunk of the problem.  That yes, you could start a profile tomorrow listed as female with a poor profile and no picture and get messages - not because it is easier for women, but because men have low standards 

This is then the problem that this reflects elsewhere.    

But when it comes to real hoop jumping.  

The amount of women who will be asked to verify they are real, asks for photos or video calls, or whatever "to prove they're real" with the man having offered little/nothing themselves.  When, despite this, there is a common scam where men ask women to 'prove they're real' so they can use the pic/vid/etc to catfish as them elsewhere. 

Then, OK - time for the old 'meet for a coffee' thing - for the man, location is unlikely to be an issue - for a woman there's a whole raft of safety to consider, even though it's just a coffee. For example somewhere not too close to their home that it might give away their location, but not too far out their way.  Coffee often picked because it's inexpensive because then if the man tries to use financial might, it's a coffee not leverage.  There's no real guilt or issue over what is picked from the menu, it is coffee and maybe sandwich/cake.

If it escalates to a date/date - restaurant/drinks then there's a lot of power play that men try to do - so for example if buying/paying for expensive food/drink using that as a way to coerce the woman into putting out.  That also she may have an issue between not wanting to accept full payment so it doesn't seem like she is 'gold digging' or that she has to recipicate in some kind, whereas also not wishing for a confrontation if she pushes to pay half 

Equally when ordering from menus, again the balance between how order choices are perceived, especially in terms of greed (if going for expensive items) or also being mindful of alcohol consumption (did you know the most common date *** method is plying with alcohol?) and trying to get the balance here between enjoying the company and keeping safe.

I mean, if you call putting in basic minimum effort to be 'jumping through hoops' then there's no real hope.

And, y'know.  Actually, I would be more interested in kissing ladies ass right now - but, I don't get how that's your take away.    Like, you've made your first contributions to the boards in peddling lies and myths and then disagreeing with anyone trying to offer insight.  

[CopperKnob]

  3 hours ago, ace2587 said:

That still doesn’t change the fact that you didn’t send a single message to anyone, or disprove anything I said. If anything, it completely validates my points. You didn’t send a single message to any of those men to initiate conversation, and you had the luxury of “sifting” thru them and taking your pick of the litter. How awful that must be to be that desired by that many people and having the cumbersome chore of deciding which one is worth your time.

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Then let me invalidate your thoughts and opinion (not facts). The last date I went on, he paid for the activity. I paid for the two course meal. We then did rounds for the drinks we had.
I also initiate contact with men here but, there has to be one of two things, either a well thought out profile (it doesn't even need to match mine) or good interaction within the forums.
Your "facts" are outdated. Absolutely in years gone by yes men initiated contact, the arranged the date and paid for it too. You know why? Because women weren't in the work*** or if they were, were in menial, low paid jobs.
Times have changed, women have evolved, men have not.

[Al****]

It's always easier for a woman to get sex, before a man can, not many men turns down sex...

[CopperKnob]

  2 hours ago, ace2587 said:

Mental gymnastics, the lot of it. It doesn’t matter what you are or aren’t looking for. It doesn’t matter that all of the men messaging you aren’t your idea of perfect. The simple fact is you have far more opportunities to find a meaningful connection, therefore it is easier. It’s like two people playing the lottery - one person has 100 tickets and the other has only 1. Also I find the complaints that are to the effect of “I was interested, but he didn’t read my mind and make the next move” amusing. Again, it is the socially assumed responsibility of the male to do every last thing.

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Maybe rather than reading minds, we should be reading the written words under this thread.
For the most part, depending on location/culture etc, women across the globe have a great deal more independence than they solid 40/50yrs ago. We have access to education, we have access to well paying careers, we have access to mortgages. In other words, we can provide for ourselves rather than relying on men to provide for us. We do what we need to do keep ourselves safe, we no longer need men to protect us especially when statistically speaking it's the men in our homes that are the most unsafe.
For myself, and the majority of single women, the reason I'm single and not actively looking for a partner is this,
1. What will a partner provide/bring to my life that I can't provide for myself
And
2. I don't want to parent an adult
I'm not prepared to make life more challenging for the sake of a 2 income household.

[ey****]

  7 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

d. Absolutely in years gone by yes men initiated contact, the arranged the date and paid for it too. You know why? Because women weren't in the work*** or if they were, were in menial, low paid jobs.

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just to add to that also

in a lot of that era some women may have been deemed lucky enough to have a few suitors, and one of the purposes of some of these dates was to peacock, i.e. to show he could provide.  Which was kinda important, since she couldn't work. Or if she could, would be expected to quit after either marriage, or *** 

[ey****]

  3 minutes ago, AlDom said:

It's always easier for a woman to get sex, before a man can, not many men turns down sex...

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if it's easier for a woman to have sex than a man - who is the woman having sex with?   

[CopperKnob]

  5 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

just to add to that also

in a lot of that era some women may have been deemed lucky enough to have a few suitors, and one of the purposes of some of these dates was to peacock, i.e. to show he could provide.  Which was kinda important, since she couldn't work. Or if she could, would be expected to quit after either marriage, or *** 

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You know, at a recent family event I was asked why I was single and I blurted out the "I don't want to parent an adult man" and the room fell silent but, the faces on my mum and my aunt were priceless because they knew exactly what I meant. My mother for example wanted to be a nurse, her parents disallowed any formal further education because that's not what women do.
Even now, our conversations about worldly matters, corporate matters is difficult because she wasn't 'allowed' those experiences. Frankly, she wouldn't survive without my dad she's so reliant on him and it's actually really sad.
I would never intentionally put myself in that position.

[ac****]

  20 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

Then let me invalidate your thoughts and opinion (not facts). The last date I went on, he paid for the activity. I paid for the two course meal. We then did rounds for the drinks we had.
I also initiate contact with men here but, there has to be one of two things, either a well thought out profile (it doesn't even need to match mine) or good interaction within the forums.
Your "facts" are outdated. Absolutely in years gone by yes men initiated contact, the arranged the date and paid for it too. You know why? Because women weren't in the work*** or if they were, were in menial, low paid jobs.
Times have changed, women have evolved, men have not.

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Now tell me how many dates you’ve been on where the guy has paid - the truth and with a straight face. Exactly. You guys should focus less on taking this as a personal attack (or a popularity contest in your case, sheep) and just realize the simple facts. How am I peddling lies when quite a few people have chimed in to essentially say what I have said, is VirginiaGuy77 peddling lies? No, because you don’t have a problem with him, just with me, right? Right.
Also, men have to worry about those things too, sheep. I have been catfished before by someone who was about 150 lbs heavier than their picture. Besides that, I am continually encountering scammers and women who are clearly only in it for monetary reasons. ESPECIALLY HERE. So it’s not like men go into every situation with a raging hard on and no anxiety whatsoever. At all. Another thing… I’m not desperate and I don’t have lower than low standards… I don’t want a one time sexual encounter and to ghost or to be ghosted. So all the things you are saying about those kind of guys are certainly relevant and true of some, but not about me

[Th****]

  6 hours ago, guterZeitvertreib said:

How many times did you reach out to men by yourself? (just a curious question to get more data-points🤭)

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None. I haven't found any that interest me at all

[CopperKnob]

  3 minutes ago, ace2587 said:

Now tell me how many dates you’ve been on where the guy has paid - the truth and with a straight face. Exactly. You guys should focus less on taking this as a personal attack (or a popularity contest in your case, sheep) and just realize the simple facts. How am I peddling lies when quite a few people have chimed in to essentially say what I have said, is VirginiaGuy77 peddling lies? No, because you don’t have a problem with him, just with me, right? Right.
Also, men have to worry about those things too, sheep. I have been catfished before by someone who was about 150 lbs heavier than their picture. Besides that, I am continually encountering scammers and women who are clearly only in it for monetary reasons. ESPECIALLY HERE. So it’s not like men go into every situation with a raging hard on and no anxiety whatsoever. At all. Another thing… I’m not desperate and I don’t have lower than low standards… I don’t want a one time sexual encounter and to ghost or to be ghosted. So all the things you are saying about those kind of guys are certainly relevant and true of some, but not about me

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Hmm, I'm pretty certain I didn't say any of the things you're suggesting I did.

[ac****]

  6 minutes ago, CopperKnob said:

Hmm, I'm pretty certain I didn't say any of the things you're suggesting I did.

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Sorry a lot of that was for sheep boy. I guess you are picking up what I am laying down tho by allowing my question for you to be a rhetorical one. It’s not a personal attack on you or anyone else. It’s simply to demonstrate that we DO live in a culture and society where the man courts the woman… almost never the other way around. That is all I’m trying to help everyone here understand. That and nothing more.

[lolli-leigh]

While the ratio of m to f is higher and it appears that it is easier, I would say the actual relality is that woman still have to wade through alot of men to find a decent one. Thus balancing the ratio out.

[CopperKnob]

  14 hours ago, ace2587 said:

Sorry a lot of that was for sheep boy. I guess you are picking up what I am laying down tho by allowing my question for you to be a rhetorical one. It’s not a personal attack on you or anyone else. It’s simply to demonstrate that we DO live in a culture and society where the man courts the woman… almost never the other way around. That is all I’m trying to help everyone here understand. That and nothing more.

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His name is @eyemblacksheep

I'm not taking anything as an attack simply because this is a forum topic that has been done to death and the same arguments are put forward by men who believe they're struggling to make connections with the women here and elsewhere but who fail to consider other people's/genders perspectives. That in itself is telling. It's also because I have no interest in finding a partner for the reasons above and frankly your responses feed into that.
.
If you believe that those are the current cultural norms, I'd suggest that you review your thinking. Plenty of advice and information has been given by the women commenting on this post, which could be being used as feedback. I'm guessing most people, however, will continue to believe in the male loneliness epidemic and blame the women for it, though.