Men's Issues

[ey****]

This is an old post which I made on Fetlife about 18 months ago after open discussion with folk - I think it's relevant for some balance to some other posts

The first thing I want to kind of start with was I'm specifically trying to keep away from MRA, Red Pill, PUA type rhetoric.
Whilst I'm sure there are good points within there, a lot over-simplifies or sits alongside a lot of toxic views and harmful language that is largely counterproductive.

My next point is that I wanted to try to keep or link things to the fetish community, both on and offline.  It doesn't really matter if a man is more likely to be drafted to the front line of military (besides, that's a rule made by men. So.)

I've also tried to keep out too many of the self-made problems.  If you sent 100 DMs and got no replies then the reason you got no replies is because you sent 100 DMs.  If your profile is poor, with no or stolen pictures then you are not going to get very far - but, some of this does tie slightly into one of my points below.

And a final pre-requisite.
Of the guys reading this - how many of us can say we've received DMs that are threats of sexual *** ? Or specifically sent dick pics?
Probably not many and those of us who have, probably not all that regularly.
That's not to say that our problems are not valid - that just because someone else seemingly has it worse, doesn't mean there aren't challenges we face.

(As often, I apologise for the heteronormative narrative)

MEN ARE EXPECTED TO MAKE THE FIRST MOVE

This is in all aspects of dating - and just as valid within kink.  
It also doesn't seem to matter if you are sub or Dom (or any other).  Granted, we've all had stories of where the woman made the first move (and there's probably been a few come-to-gethers from passive connections).
Certainly over the years I've had more people who've said "I always hoped you'd ask to play/film/whatever" than those who've put out the first invite.
And each time I think "this could have happened sooner if I'd asked sooner" but also "this could have happened sooner if YOU had asked sooner" and sometimes I've not asked because I've felt low or short of confidence and this would have been a massive boost.

The thing with that is, well, chances are we will be rejected to one degree or another multiple times which is something which can knock the confidence but being something we're just expected to deal with.

A LOT OF MEN STRUGGLE TO TALK ABOUT SEX AND KINK

This is something that feeds into a lot of the awful profiles.  But also, in communicating.

Some of the "I'll do anything" comes from here (though, partially under the idea a sub should do whatever they're told - even though you're not their sub, you're just arranging a playdate or whatever) and that there's this somewhat belief that if they appear eager and up for anything they might actually get whatever it is they actually want.

One of the big failings in this is that a lot of people find it exhausting trying to coax this information out of the person.
So just don't bother.

Or, sometimes in Pro circles someone who doesn't have all that much work might take the booking whilst be a little worried if that was what the client really wanted.

Going the other way, are those who talk too explicitly and often inappropriately or unsolicited.

When I said above about the idea of a "sub should do what they're told" there's a lot of men who post as Dominants trying to order around sub girls, or message in role and wonder why this falls flat.

There's a kind of double problem within here that largely, this is communication skills the man must work on - but it's not the job of the person they're messaging to improve them for them.

But, this could just be a wider problem that men tend not to talk about sex above "I'd totally bang her"

MEN GET LUMPED IN WITH OTHERS THEY DON'T FIT WITH

I remember a newspaper article a while ago where the journalist had gone to a foot fetish party.  They spoke to some of the ladies and some of the men and one of the men felt particularly uncomfortable.

To give an idea some of these foot parties you pay an entry fee into where you are free to look, mingle, etc. and a bit like any form of dancing club there'll be ladies, who you approach or will work the floor, and you pay a small amount of *** for a small amount of time with their feet.

So the guy interviewed was very happy with this set up - but he found the other guys were all submissive, in sub mode and he was "just" a guy with a foot fetish.
He didn't really fit with the other guys.  

MEN GET LUMPED IN WITH THE BAD BEHAVIOUR OF OTHER MEN

Some of this is down to pattern behaviour.  Something I've wrote about before.  
That, I dunno, the reason your "Hey" message doesn't get a reply isn't just because of how much other junk is in the recipients inbox but - but because they've made the mistake of replying to "Hey" messages from strangers in the past and just how tiresome the conversation gets.

So, regardless of the little plan in your head about "just chatting and seeing where things go" - she already knows they will go nowhere because she's made the mistake of replying to tiring messages in the past.

So even if you are in the 3% of Hey messages that goes somewhere... she's not got the motivation and you're lumped with the other 97%

But, aside from that.  Whilst repeating steps others have made would get you lumped in with them, sometimes certain fetishes are enough.

Take foot fetish for example.  
Every now and then one lady or another on my Facebook will post about how there's been some random guy in her inbox asking for foot pictures.
This is obviously highly inappropriate.
Some of the comments this will attract can cast shame on the fetish, but also assume this is something common amongst foot fetishists - that if they're not asking for photos, they're scouring your photos looking for them.

I also distinctly remember a conversation at a kink discussion group where I mentioned my foot fetish and one of the ladies was surprised and exclaimed, "Really? But you're not a creep!" because the only other foot guys she'd interactions with were creepy, including one who'd bounce from lady to lady around the event desperate for foot play.

So, there's presumptions about certain fetishes.

PEOPLE THINK WE ALWAYS WANT SEX

Aside that I can think of a number of men on the kink scene who are asexual; sex (by however you define it) isn't always what the guy wants.
That, even, some guys go through with sex because they want the cuddles at the end.

This plays into my next point...

MEN ARE LESS LIKELY TO REPORT BREACH OF CONSENT AGAINST THEM

Because they don't feel they will be believed.  Or perhaps did raise it and things were laughed off.

Mind. Some probably saw that others don't entirely appear to get support.

It's difficult to really know how many unreported problems there are in general, from anyone irrespective of sex or gender.  But, men tend to felt they lacked the support.

MEN ARE SUPPORTED LESS ON MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES

I often felt when another "Mental Health in Men" post or meme went around I thought - 'you know, we don't have the stigma we used to'
Until, one day, I was on the receiving end of such stigma.   That I'd been accused of using it as an excuse, and also wallowing in self-pity, seeking validation, so on so forth.
And, part of what gobsmacked me with this, was that this came from someone who followed ladies who'd also been open about Mental Health struggles and he never would have dreamed of saying this to them.

It helped me realise. No, the support we thought was there - isn't quite there.

NEGATIVE PORTRAYAL IN FILM AND PORN

Not talking about general/fucking porn.

But in films - whether Dom or sub (and it always has to be one) men are some or all of manipulative, losers, entitled.

Maledom porn seems to always be about cocksucking.  Femdom porn again in many cases the sub is a loser, pathetic, useless, so on. Being punished for being a pervert
Only on occasion do we get the odd "reward" or "training" clip (it's why I often like to film some as a reward)

WE ALSO GET PAID LESS IN PORN

Although, most of the focus is on the glamorous person and not us And it's not like we're needed cos POVs sell well enough.

WE ARE OFTEN MEASURED ON SUCCESS OR WEALTH

That, ironically, despite being portrayed as losers - we also have to be successful.
A forum post the other day suggested you couldn't really be a young Dominant because you'd need financial stability to support a sub... while sub males are expected to be financially stable to support their Mistress.

WE ARE LEFT MORE ON OUR OWN TO GET HELP OR ADVICE

Which I'm not saying is necessarily a bad thing.  Also how things appear on the surface might not reflect reality.

But certainly that "Hi I'm new" posts tend to get a lot more responses from someone marked as F.  But also, imagine the difference in responses to a young lady wishing to experience certain kinks or fetishes compared to a guy.

Mind, there's no certainty the lady would get good offers.  But still.
You know there'll be offers in the inbox whilst guys are told "come to a munch" or "book a Pro"

Mind, this could be the difference that the lady gets more replies looking for what they get out of this... but still.

Just monitor the response difference on any annual bucket list post

WHY DO THESE PROBLEMS EXIST? AND WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

The why is complicated, it's very much a wider society thing that I probably don't have time to fully and fairly dissect.
But what a lot of these have in common is 'other men'.

We haven't entirely got over the outdated idea of "Man goes to work, wife stays home and raises kids"

There's still a visioned hierarchy which puts men slightly above women.  Sometimes the "loser sub" is actually a part of that hierarchy.  That you'd have to be a loser to be below women. (But, not always - sometimes it ties in with fantasy.  It's too complex for this post).

That men can't be seen as weak ties in with some of my points above on mental health support, less likely to report consent *** and even being seen as weak/submissive is therefore a "loser"

What we can do about it

Guys. I'm afraid a lot of this is on us.

For everyone (including guys)

Perhaps keeping bookmarks or access to good writings, posts or resources that people will find helpful; from a generally good source.
Try to avoid MRA/Red-Pill/PUA sites/speakers because even if there's a good article it sits alongside a lot of toxic views.

Show encouragement on guys photos, etc. where appropriate (don't like stuff for the sake of it - but, don't feel put off encouraging if it's someone you don't believe will take it as hitting on you)

If you see someone you like struggling then reach out regardless of their sex or gender.

It's OK to make the first move now and then

And, also, to be aware of how a lot of unhealthy structures in society negatively affect everyone.

[Phoenyx]

Perhaps, I may have some clarification.  First, the online world, from a historic perspective, is still a new frontier.  Men and women have been getting together, IRL, for millennia.  However, connecting "on line" has only been around for a couple decades.  The human psyche has yet to fully adapt to this new medium.  Also, it provides a certain a certain "safe barrier", which can cause folks to act much differently than they would IRL.  "Screen time" can be much like visiting day at the penitentiary.

Ironically, in most successful connections, it is the women who initiate contact.  For example, at a bar or fetish event, they may do so through certain looks and/or body language.  When the man returns that gaze, the lady may drop her gaze downward, to indicate that she is interested in proceeding to the next step.  Or, she could turn her head and her gaze to the side, indicating disinterest.  A more "forward" lady may even maintain the gaze, while giving a slight shrug, indicating "Are you coming over, or not?"  That is when the man appears to make the first move, by going-over and talking to her.

It is important to note though, that that is merely the first step.  The next step involves discussing each other's interests, and assessing each other's motives and personalities.  It is also important to note, that these are just the first two steps in a long, multi-step process.  Guys have gotten a bad name because of the aggressive few---those who have taken Step One or Step Two as a "green light to go all-the-way".

Of course, there are times when the roles are reversed.  This may be particularly true at "play parties", where it is the sub who gives the signals, and it is the Domme who "makes the move".

On the question of "self-confidence", this often comes from an inability to "read signals".  Or, more often, it is a case of not trusting those signals.  Society is full of horror stories about guys who have assumed too much from Step One.  In truth, Step One is just a signal to talk.  And yes, Step Two is awkward for everyone.

Now, as to how all of this applies to "on-line".  In many ways, on-line meeting combines Steps One & Two into a single step.  The rule that the guy must make the first move, goes out the window---as there are no face-to-face signals to initiate that move.  In fact, it may be the ladies and/or subs who need to make the first contact.  For example, many younger ladies may be experiencing burnout from being "hit-on" too many times.  So, they may have given-up on unsolicited messages.  Remember, this electronic world is still experimental, in terms of interpersonal relations.

Which, gets into the importance of "profiles".  Consider the profile to be much like getting dressed for a night at the pub or fetish club.  Give the other person a good conversation-starter.  Also, take the time to check-out the other person's profile.  "Hi" or "Hey" may work well at the office water-cooler.  But online, that could just seem like a spam message.  Be specific with openings, like, "I like your _____" (name of something observed in the profile).  This adds a personal touch.  The conversation can expand from there.

[Phoenyx]

Just one other thing to add.  It has been mentioned that a guy is socially discouraged from complementing another guy's clothes.  Not true!  In reality, it is all in how the message is delivered.  For example, a lady may come up to a guy and say, "I like your shirt!"  Yes, this is a conversation starter.  However, another guy will likely say, "Cool shirt!", often accompanied by the thumbs-up signal.  He may even add, "Where can I get one of those?"  Though the two statements say the same thing, they are clearly two different messages.

[Deleted Member]

For conversations like this I prefer to use the structure of masculinity and femininity rather than man and woman. I hope we all have a fairly good idea of masculine and feminine archetypes so I won’t define them as it would take too long.

We have a good idea culturally of what constitutes “masculine man” and “feminine woman” and our society is more or less built on that. We’re getting better at “masculine woman” as there’s a lot of focus on women’s issues atm, but we haven’t done a great job of integrating “feminine man” into cultural norms.

There will always be people who refuse to fit into any category or want them to be defined their specific way and those people will always have a hard time because our brains need to simplify/categorise and we are social ***s so what we agree en masse wins.

I think we’ll get there, but it will take time. Women have only started taking their place in our new more egalitarian society very recently, about 100 years, which is nothing by historical standards. We can only move so fast as a society without the whole thing crumbling and turning into North Korea. It’s tough, but we must be patient, and continue fighting the good fight as you say.