Is Provision of Goods and Services Gynocentric or Is This Just Being Too Heteronormative?

[Deleted Member]

A recent post was made about why women don't necessarily have online dating better because they have to deal with the *** of harassment angle although I think this fell short of the objective mainly which was to show that in a more practical sense - that women may have far more feasible opportunities once they've filtered through all the men they wouldn't want to meet.

Anyway, this got me thinking about bargaining disadvantage this gives men overall in dating, and I have noticed that when goods and services are demanded by a partner in BDSM (or vanilla dating for that fact), it doesn't really change according to the D/S scale as much as it does according to gender.

If women on here have more opportunities, then they have more capital to request goods and services from male prospects. For example, "sugar babies" are female submissives (with the exception of findom sugar babies) who want "sugar daddies" to pay for everything. Then the amount of pros are largely female too, in fact there is a section for female dominatrices who request tributes and domestic servitude from their submissive.

Finally, there are dominatrices who may not request "payment" as such for a session but may request tributes or even just gifts as well as services around the house. I don't really see much of the opposite scenarios happening: submissive males who request to be financially pampered and spoiled by female dominatrices or dominant males who expect a house full of submissive women doing his dry cleaning and cooking for him.

I would say that it is almost just as rare to find a woman who doesn't really expect any kind of servitude, financial provision or gifts from their submissives or dominants on here but I am willing to be corrected.

Any thoughts - do these things happen in a significant sense or is it largely in the minority when it does?

[ey****]

It's a good question

Though there's stuff where there's often a bigger picture.   If you look only online then often the women more likely to advertise are those looking for some form of financial arrangement.  This is often an inflated figure in itself if you consider within these there will be a percentage of scammers and catfish

If, for example, you go out amongst the kink community then the financial element is generally far less prevalent. 

And while women who work professional or whatever may attend these events they don't do so cruising for clients (I mean, they're probably not going to find any - because the guys who are there hoping for play or whatever aren't interesting in finding someone to pay else they'd just, well, book somebody)

If your view of the scene is only based on online, you don't have the full picture.

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One other big factor is men tend to earn more.  Which is why something like an 'allowance' or gifts if in a caregiving role which involves them might be involved.   Or, of course in some Femdom scenarios, then making spending sacrifices in order to assist, serve or please his Dominant may be a feature of the relationship.

-

Mind, I have come across many relationships where the man of the relationship is paying proportionally less into a joint account or taking control of household finances and having a final say on spending.  In a sugar arrangement he'd still be potentially setting/controlling the allowance (and a lot of these are boundary pushing as fuck) .  

[Deleted Member]

44 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

 If you look only online

I don't believe the prevalence is isolated to online activity. Sure, I haven't been to any munches so what would I know. I just have a pretty sure feeling I would be proven correct anyway.

 

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often the women more likely to advertise are those looking for some form of financial arrangement.

Yeah but I'm not just talking about pros. I'm talking also about people wanting long or even short-term relationships that do this kind of thing. Often the way they see it, if you have to buy gifts and things for them it's only fair because they are giving you all this attention or something rather than seeing the exchange as already being reciprocal in itself.

 

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If your view of the scene is only based on online, you don't have the full picture.

This is like when someone says "but if you don't go to that cave how do you know there won't be a dragon or a pot of gold" and I'm just like, "yeah but I reckon pretty strongly there's not going to be a dragon or a pot of gold in yonder cave".

 

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One other big factor is men tend to earn more.

Well, we also don't choose healthcare or education as professions by and large. Also young women (under 30) get bigger pay rises. Also for a lot of the female population it's because many of the older women have to take time off for pregnancy and child rearing. Finally, men are typically more likely to work physically dangerous jobs like in construction, fishing, trucking and so on so those jobs just pay more.

 

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Or, of course in some Femdom scenarios, then making spending sacrifices in order to assist, serve or please his Dominant may be a feature of the relationship.

I could say that in male dom, making spending sacrifices to please the male Dom could be a feature of the relationship but I don't think a lot of female submissives would go for this.

The only explanation that makes sense is clearly that men are more desperate, which gives women a bargaining advantage and more opportunities in dating. Raw, primitive testosterone. Makes more sense than any of your explanations.

[He****]

2 hours ago, BlushingFlush said:

A recent post was made about why women don't necessarily have online dating better because they have to deal with the *** of harassment angle although I think this fell short of the objective mainly which was to show that in a more practical sense - that women may have far more feasible opportunities once they've filtered through all the men they wouldn't want to meet.

Anyway, this got me thinking about bargaining disadvantage this gives men overall in dating, and I have noticed that when goods and services are demanded by a partner in BDSM (or vanilla dating for that fact), it doesn't really change according to the D/S scale as much as it does according to gender.

If women on here have more opportunities, then they have more capital to request goods and services from male prospects. For example, "sugar babies" are female submissives (with the exception of findom sugar babies) who want "sugar daddies" to pay for everything. Then the amount of pros are largely female too, in fact there is a section for female dominatrices who request tributes and domestic servitude from their submissive.

Finally, there are dominatrices who may not request "payment" as such for a session but may request tributes or even just gifts as well as services around the house. I don't really see much of the opposite scenarios happening: submissive males who request to be financially pampered and spoiled by female dominatrices or dominant males who expect a house full of submissive women doing his dry cleaning and cooking for him.

I would say that it is almost just as rare to find a woman who doesn't really expect any kind of servitude, financial provision or gifts from their submissives or dominants on here but I am willing to be corrected.

Any thoughts - do these things happen in a significant sense or is it largely in the minority when it does?

Stand to be corrected then, I don't expect anything financially or in the way of gifts from anyone. I've worked all my life, I've always done my share. I also have absolutely no problem if I live with someone to take care of their house, ie cooking cleaning shopping and to take care of him physically and emotionally. Okay I would expect a reciprocation of the emotional bit, I would want to feel safe and needed and wanted. All the stuff *** simply can't buy.

[Ro****]

I’m currently in a D/s relationship and I don’t expect daddy to give me handouts and he doesn’t expect me to clean his apartment. Things are different and work differently for other people. It depends on the dynamic I guess.

[Leisa]

Shocker alert. I don’t need nor do I expect a financial gain in my dynamics. I’m perfectly capable of taking care of myself and do so without the assistance of another. For others it may be dynamic driven and what is determined between the parties involved. Your questions make it seem like the majority are sitting there with their handout. Now if someone was to offer me a Tom Baker dress we may have to talk (satire)

[Deleted Member]

9 hours ago, Hels1920 said:

Stand to be corrected then, I don't expect anything financially or in the way of gifts from anyone.

 

7 hours ago, Rosebud27 said:

I don’t expect daddy to give me handouts

 

3 hours ago, Leisa said:

I don’t need nor do I expect a financial gain in my dynamics. I’m perfectly capable of taking care of myself and do so without the assistance of another.

I wasn't trying to figure out if there were exceptions to the practice of women expecting goods or services from men but if there were actually scenarios where what can be quite prevalent (women expecting goods or services) were flipped, i.e. relationship dynamics where men acquired goods or services from women. But it seems to me the inverse relationship scenario is significantly less common. It must exist but I certainly never heard of such an example, not even on the internet although I haven't sought it out either.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Deleted Member

[ey****]

11 hours ago, BlushingFlush said:

I don't believe the prevalence is isolated to online activity. Sure, I haven't been to any munches so what would I know. I just have a pretty sure feeling I would be proven correct anyway.

Or you could actually listen to people who actually go to these things - who are actually knowledgeable

rather than making wild assumptions about something you have zero experience of.

I'm not going to shit you - attending comes with no certainty of anything - but - the dynamics would kinda debunk what you've said.   

11 hours ago, BlushingFlush said:

Well, we also don't choose healthcare or education as professions by and large. etc etc etc

For the sake of this post any myths or reasons is moot

it doesn't change that men tend to earn more

11 hours ago, BlushingFlush said:

The only explanation that makes sense is clearly that men are more desperate

I won't say it is the only explanation

It's funny because elsewhere you have accused me of over simplifying things - which is exactly what you are doing here.

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

the dynamics would kinda debunk what you've said

I doubt I'm going to see relationship styles that are like 1 in 100? Is that being generous? 1 in 1000?

 

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it doesn't change that men tend to earn more

Men earn more because they often choose more physical and dangerous occupations, therefore should pay women with gifts and domestic servitude. Even young men who don't earn as much as young women. Ok got it.

 

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It's funny because elsewhere you have accused me of over simplifying things - which is exactly what you are doing here.

I was actually being nice. If I'd wanted to look at a more complex picture I'd have said something like how institutional feminist norms in mainstream media influence sexist norms like mentioned in the OP subject. But that would just be mean now, wouldn't it?

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, BlushingFlush said:

I was actually being nice. If I'd wanted to look at a more complex picture I'd have said something like how institutional feminist norms in mainstream media influence sexist norms like mentioned in the OP subject. But that would just be mean now, wouldn't it?

You weren't being nice. You dismiss other people's perspectives on every post. Eyem is one of the most respected members of the site because of his knowledge and willingness to discuss ideas openly and share experiences.

[we****]

I understand that you are talking generally, so specific examples of these dynamics running without financial benefit to the woman are, with the very greatest respect to the individuals involved, irrelevant. I am inclined, with no imperical evidence to hand, to agree with you. I am not trying to be inflammatory, but there is something about your post that feels as if you have left something unsaid, and to me, just to me I don’t mean this was your intention, it feels I little mysogynistic? 😕 if this is a case of a scenario where women habitually benefit at the ‘expense’ of men, it would be in the minority. And this forum could be filled side side with the examples in the other direction.
I’m sure you can see from my language that I am very nervous to post this, and I am only doing so with the awareness that I could be deluged with specific cases to disprove my point and examples of women’s exploitation of men (which I hadn’t to add I do not consider this scenario to be). I promised I would own my own gender identification and sexuality and I guess I have to include this in that…

[ey****]

2 hours ago, BlushingFlush said:

But that would just be mean now, wouldn't it?

It would also be woefully inaccurate. 

But don't let your own misogyny tell you otherwise.

Why are you even here?  You ignore advice. You clearly aren't looking to learn or improve. You have it set in your mind how everything is and don't wish to accept there's other possibilities. Your only purpose seems to be to troll and make bad faith arguments.

What is the point of you?

[Deleted Member]

23 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

It would also be woefully inaccurate. 

But don't let your own misogyny tell you otherwise.

Why are you even here?  You ignore advice. You clearly aren't looking to learn or improve. You have it set in your mind how everything is and don't wish to accept there's other possibilities. Your only purpose seems to be to troll and make bad faith arguments.

What is the point of you?

😲 I've never seen this side of you. 👏🏻

[ey****]

26 minutes ago, Dragonflylover said:

😲 I've never seen this side of you. 👏🏻

Haha 

I know, it's just.  Like - I'm not sure what the point was to the post other than to disagree.

That; I guess we are often limited to our own experiences - but - like, when someone says "if you did x, y, and z you'd find this isn't the case" and it's "No. I've made your mind up" - then, OK. There's no real helping.  The person then can only see a narrow version of the reality.

There's lots of way where - I know how tough things can be/seem cos I've been there.  And there's a lot of frustrations I see guys having which I can empathise to a degree - but - like, don't spend too long wallowing, or blaming feminism, or offsetting blame - finding relationships is hard, but if you accept this without playing a victim, it does make things a little bit easier.  A little.

Perhaps. A bit.

I do feel a little online some of the financial element distorts the reality.   Most kink relationship don't have any greater levels of gifting or whatever than vanilla relationships.  

[Deleted Member]

1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said:

Haha 

I know, it's just.  Like - I'm not sure what the point was to the post other than to disagree.

That; I guess we are often limited to our own experiences - but - like, when someone says "if you did x, y, and z you'd find this isn't the case" and it's "No. I've made your mind up" - then, OK. There's no real helping.  The person then can only see a narrow version of the reality.

There's lots of way where - I know how tough things can be/seem cos I've been there.  And there's a lot of frustrations I see guys having which I can empathise to a degree - but - like, don't spend too long wallowing, or blaming feminism, or offsetting blame - finding relationships is hard, but if you accept this without playing a victim, it does make things a little bit easier.  A little.

Perhaps. A bit.

I do feel a little online some of the financial element distorts the reality.   Most kink relationship don't have any greater levels of gifting or whatever than vanilla relationships.  

To complain is human, to wallow divine 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Deleted Member]

4 hours ago, Dragonflylover said:

You weren't being nice. You dismiss other people's perspectives on every post. Eyem is one of the most respected members of the site because of his knowledge and willingness to discuss ideas openly and share experiences.

Sorry I don't kowtow to people that claim (or that others claim of them) to be Yoda. I'd rather look for my own inner Yoda.

 

3 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

It would also be woefully inaccurate. 

But don't let your own misogyny tell you otherwise.

Why are you even here?  You ignore advice. You clearly aren't looking to learn or improve. You have it set in your mind how everything is and don't wish to accept there's other possibilities. Your only purpose seems to be to troll and make bad faith arguments.

What is the point of you?

I'm just showing a side to dating that culturally sensitive narratives in mainstream media and BDSM don't let people see. I don't want advice or compassion or guru-esque wisdom. It all comes across as condescending to me, so that's probably why my tone seems bitter from your perspective because you don't get that I don't want these things you're trying to share with me.

 

 

[ey****]

51 minutes ago, BlushingFlush said:

I'm just showing a side to dating that culturally sensitive narratives in mainstream media and BDSM don't let people see. I don't want advice or compassion or guru-esque wisdom. It all comes across as condescending to me, so that's probably why my tone seems bitter from your perspective because you don't get that I don't want these things you're trying to share with me.

I guess then, and I do apologise if I come across condescending

What still is your aim?  Because if you're just posting a grumble that's not meant for conversation - then what is it's point?

[Deleted Member]

2 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said:

What still is your aim? 

I don't know, just something I feel I need to do for some reason. I don't see it as grumbling, just expressing my point of view.

[so****]

Nah bro. Women for sure have it better lol Jesus, just refer to the experiments & polls done by okqupid. Holy shit. Recently on Reddit there was a women who posted a story about trying to help her younger brother with his online dating profiles because he was having such bad luck & she was convinced he was doing something wrong. Once she got control of his account, she set it up & started sending opening messages to women she thought he'd like. Her exact words were "I came away very depressed"🤣 imagine that. She saw for herself how harsh it is for men. I can give all the links & references if you like. It's very enlightening. Gynocentric indeed lol one word: Hypergamy. Of course women have it easier online. Only an ignorant fool would argue otherwise. Any amount of actual research will prove this.

[ey****]

10 minutes ago, sonofthunder777 said:

Of course women have it easier online.

So don't just stick to online

Why is this so difficult?

[Deleted Member]

17 minutes ago, sonofthunder777 said:

Nah bro. Women for sure have it better lol Jesus, just refer to the experiments & polls done by okqupid. Holy shit. Recently on Reddit there was a women who posted a story about trying to help her younger brother with his online dating profiles because he was having such bad luck & she was convinced he was doing something wrong. Once she got control of his account, she set it up & started sending opening messages to women she thought he'd like. Her exact words were "I came away very depressed"🤣 imagine that. She saw for herself how harsh it is for men. I can give all the links & references if you like. It's very enlightening. Gynocentric indeed lol one word: Hypergamy. Of course women have it easier online. Only an ignorant fool would argue otherwise. Any amount of actual research will prove this.

Oh yeah, I heard about the Okcupid studies some time ago - even when being sent respectable messages women largely don't respond. I'm sure there's some guys that just want to harass women but there must also be a portion of poorly judged messages sent out just purely out of repeated frustration. That story does indeed sound depressing sadly it's not confined to online dating because it's not like young single guys can just walk around bars and yoga studios and coffee shops pulling women their own age group like eyemblacksheep seems to think. It is unfortunate there's not more users like you on this site that get it. Most of the guys here want to kowtow to cultural sensitivity in mainstream narratives, vanilla dating and BDSM. I think they think that if they don't *** off women here they might get laid but actually I would hope that is the case and they don't just act all subservient even in spite of the way life treats you. Can you imagine swinging for the team that's trying to take your head off?

[je****]

Somebody swallowed a dictionary.

[Deleted Member]

15 hours ago, jetcoaster said:

Somebody swallowed a dictionary.

It's called "having a vocabulary".

[Mr****]

I think it's largely that this is a side, as a straight male, that you'd be more exposed to. Partly due to the nature of dating sites, the Internet and the S. W. industry.

In more vanilla circumstances I believe it to be mostly based off of patrichal norms for the male to be the provider.

In less vanilla situations you are either the target market for females indulging in financial fetishes. And not the target market for males seeking it.

Although in my expirience it is 90% males or male identifying individuals who tend to spend on a financial fetishist. Or that's just the sort that I attract on that side of my nature.

[Mr****]

Patriarchal**