Message etiquette

[ge****]

19 minutes ago, Mathbro said:

 

It's actually relevant as it provides a reason, I talked to CS and apparently there is a bug but it goes beyond your profile. Thus we are both right. With your confessions visible if I were to message you I would try to add something relevant to the message but if you want better messages try adding more to your profile. Good luck.  

But the thing is - even without the "Kinky Confessions" bit (which I can see) there's still plenty on the OPs profile to go on and use to craft an initial message that goes beyond "Hi" - there's a status update for starters, numerous pics and then various site provided indicators of interests - plenty there to pick something more than "Hi" from.
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So your focusing on her profile content as a reason she may not be getting the messages she would like to get was somewhat unfair.
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As I've said though - if guys want to send a simple "Hi" that's there prerogative, but with it has to come a level of acceptance it may not generate a response.
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eyem makes a very good point though about those saying "if a profile gives me nothing to go on why should I send more than a "hi"?" - because it does beg the question why you'd be messaging that profile in the first place, and does suggest a level of "messaging anyone" in the hope of a reply, rather than sticking to messaging those that genuinely interest you.

[Ceejayuk]

25 minutes ago, Mathbro said:

 

It's actually relevant as it provides a reason, I talked to CS and apparently there is a bug but it goes beyond your profile. Thus we are both right. With your confessions visible if I were to message you I would try to add something relevant to the message but if you want better messages try adding more to your profile. Good luck.  

Not really, you are really hung up on the profile. Even if you cannt see the details of someones profile, you can still send more than a simply "hi" message. you can introduce yourself properly, you can give them a little bit of your background, your interests etc, you can ask them questions.

At the end of the day some people clearly want more than a "hi" message, you think its fine to send a "hi" message, so be it. It just means those wanting more than a simple "hi" simply will not respond to you.

Edit
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Gemini_man pipped me to the post :p
 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Ceejayuk

[Pe****]

Yesterday at 01:21 AM, lvlrBraveheart said:

I feel like the reason men and women only give short messages is because of the lack of response. I give you some detailed idea of what I'm looking for that's well thought out and respectful and I get no response or no thanks'd or my favorite - sorry I don't like bald guys.. = )

The value of an app like this is being able to communicate easily and having a conversation before you take the leap to invest yourself into someone in an alternative relationship and by choosing to be turned off by a lack of detail in intial communication is only limiting yourself.

Real life interactions don't start off with a monologue about who you are and what your looking for. They start out with someone being friendly to you and you taking that chance to be friendly in return. A simple compliment or helpful gesture.

It's always your choice how to interact and its your right to look down on people who don't put effort out intially. Think about how many times you've reached out and gotten ghosted, ignored, or told thanks I'm good then think about your choice to do the same to others.

Don’t like bald guys😳😳 bald guys are sexy AF in my opinion of course!! A beard with that bald head? Uber sexy!!!!

[ge****]

The other point that many of those defending just sending a "Hi" initial message have missed is that, like it or not, the ladies of the site receive hundreds of messages on sites like this, some of them daily, so are faced with the choice of who they respond to.
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So ask yourself this, if you had to choose between replying to a simple "Hi" or a more detailed message that was respectful and considerate, and piqued interest in what it had to say, which would you choose?
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Now obviously there may be other factors to consider, such as the senders profile, forum interactions etc - but at a very basic level it comes down to your initial message needing to grab the recipients attention sufficiently for them to reply and 90% of the tike "Hi" or variants of it aren't going to do that.

[Se****]

3 hours ago, Ceejayuk said:

Not really, you are really hung up on the profile. Even if you cannt see the details of someones profile, you can still send more than a simply "hi" message. you can introduce yourself properly, you can give them a little bit of your background, your interests etc, you can ask them questions.

At the end of the day some people clearly want more than a "hi" message, you think its fine to send a "hi" message, so be it. It just means those wanting more than a simple "hi" simply will not respond to you.

Edit
====
Gemini_man pipped me to the post :p
 

😘😘😘

[Se****]

1 hour ago, kaycie said:

Don’t like bald guys😳😳 bald guys are sexy AF in my opinion of course!! A beard with that bald head? Uber sexy!!!!

100% agree xx

[Mi****]

See, this is reassuring, the way I message people tends to be as you prefer it, hi is considered by most to be lazy, and one user on another discussion said this kind of messaging doesn't work because it usually means you're mentioning kink off the bat - But in order to complement someome's profile, you almoat always have to do that because most will only mention their kinks and limits on there 😅 Appreciate you focusing on what does work, most people will just say what doesn't, and not consider rhat might be a matter of preference - Thanks!

[Ad****]

Saturday at 11:41 PM, Lady_Char said:

Very valid point. When people say they are planning to message a dozen, two dozen, a hundred accounts I always think... there are that many people here who really interest you??? Or are you just planning to message anyone and everyone? In that case, what is it your after? Can't be a real connection or you'd be more selective.

Some people wont know based on a picture and a few generic words who interests them. These people may not become interested in anyone until a few words are exchanged. So, talking to a lot of people allows them to find one or two people who they will become interested in.

[Ad****]

20 hours ago, gemini_man said:

Elitism? Or providing the benefit of experience, and what works for them?
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Yes, there is a balance to be found between a one word message and War And Peace, and what works for one person may not work for another BUT in an environment where most of the time you need to make yourself stand out from the crowd, sending just "Hi" or similar is not going to help you, especially if your profile details are equally limited.
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Ultimately though as I've said in other posts here it's down to each of us as individuals to decide on the approach that we use, both in messages and to the site in general, but with that has to come a level of acceptance that we may not get what we hope for from it, and may have to change that approach if we don't.
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No end of bemoaning how others use the site will change a thing.

I agree. There are plenty of people on both sides of the fence, who are providing the benefit of their experience. And there are also plenty of people on either side either just complaining about the quality of first contacts, or complaining about the effort expected if them in first contact. And plenty of people insisting their preference is clearly superior and anyone doing the other thing is wrong or lazy or entitled or some such thing. The third category is the elitism I was referencing.

[Deleted Member]

36 minutes ago, Adventure101 said:

Some people wont know based on a picture and a few generic words who interests them. These people may not become interested in anyone until a few words are exchanged. So, talking to a lot of people allows them to find one or two people who they will become interested in.

Fair (I'm not convinced, but I'll give you that it's possible).

But if you can't be bothered to present yourself, you don't interest me. Just my way of doing things.

[Deleted Member]

19 hours ago, gemini_man said:

The other point that many of those defending just sending a "Hi" initial message have missed is that, like it or not, the ladies of the site receive hundreds of messages on sites like this, some of them daily, so are faced with the choice of who they respond to.
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So ask yourself this, if you had to choose between replying to a simple "Hi" or a more detailed message that was respectful and considerate, and piqued interest in what it had to say, which would you choose?
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Now obviously there may be other factors to consider, such as the senders profile, forum interactions etc - but at a very basic level it comes down to your initial message needing to grab the recipients attention sufficiently for them to reply and 90% of the tike "Hi" or variants of it aren't going to do that.

So lets remove the confessions section, what is present? Some uploaded pictures which most prefer you don't comment on unless you know them already? 

There's simply not enough to have any type of meaningful conversation starting out, when you run into people on the street you don't do any of that ridiculous stuff, you literally just say hello and talk about something mundane to decide if you want to interact on a more personal level. 

The issue in regards to being flooded with messages is true, I'm not sure how to fix that because it's the nature of online dating for women(or dating in general but online reach amplifies it). I suppose it could be semi-fixed by adding a message limit per day if there wasn't one already. Maybe 1-2 new people? 

For myself particular kinks I don't really feel the need to talk about immediately - assuming they kind of line up with mine I don't really care to discuss them. I do care to talk about other things(like what she does, hobbies, how she is a person). But I admit I'm really only interested in dating here. 

[Du****]

55 minutes ago, Mathbro said:

So lets remove the confessions section, what is present? Some uploaded pictures which most prefer you don't comment on unless you know them already? 

There's simply not enough to have any type of meaningful conversation starting out, when you run into people on the street you don't do any of that ridiculous stuff, you literally just say hello and talk about something mundane to decide if you want to interact on a more personal level. 

The issue in regards to being flooded with messages is true, I'm not sure how to fix that because it's the nature of online dating for women(or dating in general but online reach amplifies it). I suppose it could be semi-fixed by adding a message limit per day if there wasn't one already. Maybe 1-2 new people? 

For myself particular kinks I don't really feel the need to talk about immediately - assuming they kind of line up with mine I don't really care to discuss them. I do care to talk about other things(like what she does, hobbies, how she is a person). But I admit I'm really only interested in dating here. 

The solution to being “flooded with messages” is not to limit the number of messages one can send or receive daily. That’s victim-blaming in the same way as telling women how to dress or when to be out, when in fact it’s the men who attack them whose behaviour needs to change. It’s entirely the responsibility of the sender to limit themselves: just because one can message someone on the other side of the world, doesn’t mean one should. If you have nothing in common and nothing to say, don’t message them at all. If you’re that keen for them to know you exist, like their photos or join their forum conversations. A proper introduction is never “ridiculous”, but a meagre effort is just immature: in fact I’ve even had men excuse their paltry efforts by saying “I was was on my break so I didn’t have time to message properly” - !!! What, are they afraid we might be ‘snapped up’ by another man before their shift finishes? So they’re determined to lick us like a pastry at a buffet to make sure they get a go? “I didn’t have time to message properly” is the same as “I don’t think you’re worth my effort but I may as well give it a shot” - No. They achieve the exact opposite of their goal with that: they kill their chances stone dead before they’ve even begun.

[Mi****]

30 minutes ago, DuchessFeuille said:

The solution to being “flooded with messages” is not to limit the number of messages one can send or receive daily. That’s victim-blaming in the same way as telling women how to dress or when to be out, when in fact it’s the men who attack them whose behaviour needs to change. It’s entirely the responsibility of the sender to limit themselves: just because one can message someone on the other side of the world, doesn’t mean one should. If you have nothing in common and nothing to say, don’t message them at all. If you’re that keen for them to know you exist, like their photos or join their forum conversations. A proper introduction is never “ridiculous”, but a meagre effort is just immature: in fact I’ve even had men excuse their paltry efforts by saying “I was was on my break so I didn’t have time to message properly” - !!! What, are they afraid we might be ‘snapped up’ by another man before their shift finishes? So they’re determined to lick us like a pastry at a buffet to make sure they get a go? “I didn’t have time to message properly” is the same as “I don’t think you’re worth my effort but I may as well give it a shot” - No. They achieve the exact opposite of their goal with that: they kill their chances stone dead before they’ve even begun.

So maybe a limit on how many new people guys can message a day? It's a little tricky given there aren't always even men in every interaction, but until the times change and habits with them, it could well be mostly men that approach and message first so you could try it that way. It is also fair to say that messaging more people increases your chances of dating success (IF you put effort into each approach 😅) - A much better chance of a date and a genuine connection when 10 out of 100 people messaged respond than when 1 out of 10 messaged responds, it's just the law of averages. But you do have a point, whatever approach women prefer to get, you won't endear someone to you if you say crap like "Didn't have time to send a proper message!" 🤣 If you are busy and worried you are messing someone about, a quick "Hey, looking forward to our next messages, work has been busy but I will make the time for a proper response soon", or schedule a time to call will be better than half-assing our attempt

[Du****]

29 minutes ago, MisterE1989 said:

So maybe a limit on how many new people guys can message a day? It's a little tricky given there aren't always even men in every interaction, but until the times change and habits with them, it could well be mostly men that approach and message first so you could try it that way. It is also fair to say that messaging more people increases your chances of dating success (IF you put effort into each approach 😅) - A much better chance of a date and a genuine connection when 10 out of 100 people messaged respond than when 1 out of 10 messaged responds, it's just the law of averages. But you do have a point, whatever approach women prefer to get, you won't endear someone to you if you say crap like "Didn't have time to send a proper message!" 🤣 If you are busy and worried you are messing someone about, a quick "Hey, looking forward to our next messages, work has been busy but I will make the time for a proper response soon", or schedule a time to call will be better than half-assing our attempt

Granted I’m approaching this from the viewpoint of a cis-het woman, so yes, of course it’s true that the dynamic does not always apply. No, I don’t think limits should be imposed at all, that’s the point - we should be able to govern our own behaviour. And if we’re not sure what’s acceptable, the forums on here are groaning with conversations like this one, there’s no excuse for not learning good conduct from others. Exactly re: quick message, “Loved your profile, would be great to chat later if you like” - intention clear, polite greeting. Pastry licked.

[Ad****]

58 minutes ago, DuchessFeuille said:

Granted I’m approaching this from the viewpoint of a cis-het woman, so yes, of course it’s true that the dynamic does not always apply. No, I don’t think limits should be imposed at all, that’s the point - we should be able to govern our own behaviour. And if we’re not sure what’s acceptable, the forums on here are groaning with conversations like this one, there’s no excuse for not learning good conduct from others. Exactly re: quick message, “Loved your profile, would be great to chat later if you like” - intention clear, polite greeting. Pastry licked.

TBH, that's more or less how me opening messages go.

" Hi *your name*. *Comment on something I noticed or liked*. Would you like to chat."

Works well enough for me, and when people do respond it's usually a warm response.

[Ceejayuk]

3 hours ago, Mathbro said:

So lets remove the confessions section, what is present? Some uploaded pictures which most prefer you don't comment on unless you know them already? 

There's simply not enough to have any type of meaningful conversation starting out, when you run into people on the street you don't do any of that ridiculous stuff, you literally just say hello and talk about something mundane to decide if you want to interact on a more personal level. 

The issue in regards to being flooded with messages is true, I'm not sure how to fix that because it's the nature of online dating for women(or dating in general but online reach amplifies it). I suppose it could be semi-fixed by adding a message limit per day if there wasn't one already. Maybe 1-2 new people? 

For myself particular kinks I don't really feel the need to talk about immediately - assuming they kind of line up with mine I don't really care to discuss them. I do care to talk about other things(like what she does, hobbies, how she is a person). But I admit I'm really only interested in dating here. 

There you go again. You are fixed upon the other persons profile. I have given you examples of what you can say to someone even with a blank profile, instead of just sending a simple "hi".
Again you can introduce yourself properly, you can list some of your interests, you can list some of your experiences, you can ask the other person about themselves, what are they into? What are they looking for. You know ask them about the info that is not listed.

At the end of the day you are completely free to do what you want. You just would not get a reply from people who are not wanting a simple "hi" message.

There are people with full profiles still getting simple "hi"messages from people so the point is still valid.

I should also point out I sent the op a message, strangely it was not a simple "hi"message and we are now friends and chat often.....so kind of point proven really.

[Du****]

14 minutes ago, Adventure101 said:

TBH, that's more or less how me opening messages go.

" Hi *your name*. *Comment on something I noticed or liked*. Would you like to chat."

Works well enough for me, and when people do respond it's usually a warm response.

Chef’s kiss. Polite, concise, proof you’ve taken the time to read the profile. Thank you for being one of those, my friend.

[Mi****]

1 hour ago, Adventure101 said:

TBH, that's more or less how me opening messages go.

" Hi *your name*. *Comment on something I noticed or liked*. Would you like to chat."

Works well enough for me, and when people do respond it's usually a warm response.

Noted ☝️

[Se****]

6 hours ago, Mathbro said:

So lets remove the confessions section, what is present? Some uploaded pictures which most prefer you don't comment on unless you know them already? 

There's simply not enough to have any type of meaningful conversation starting out, when you run into people on the street you don't do any of that ridiculous stuff, you literally just say hello and talk about something mundane to decide if you want to interact on a more personal level. 

The issue in regards to being flooded with messages is true, I'm not sure how to fix that because it's the nature of online dating for women(or dating in general but online reach amplifies it). I suppose it could be semi-fixed by adding a message limit per day if there wasn't one already. Maybe 1-2 new people? 

For myself particular kinks I don't really feel the need to talk about immediately - assuming they kind of line up with mine I don't really care to discuss them. I do care to talk about other things(like what she does, hobbies, how she is a person). But I admit I'm really only interested in dating here. 

You have literally answered your own question with your last paragraph. 

Seriously, it’s not difficult so I’m not sure what you’re failing to understand about my preference. 

As I’ve said already the point of this thread was to find other people’s opinions and whether I was in the minority for my preference or whether I was “missing something”. 

As you continue to refer back to my profile then by now you ought to have realised that the few posts I’ve made, comments I’ve added or personal info I’ve (chosen) to provide is sufficient should a person initially wish to strike up a conversation with me. 

I’ve said before, but I’ll repeat for those who chose not to read, the HUGE difference between online interaction and face to face is body language/non verbal communication and a simple “hi” face to face can indeed have meaning because it is possible to read the persons body language. This, at present, is physically impossible in online messages and subsequently can lead the receiver, me in this instance, to feel like I’m one in a long line of bored “hi’s” hoping to receive a bite. 

I have acknowledged, more than once, that this is MY opinion and preference and also that others are, rightly, entitled to their own and that I’m happy to discuss this and learn. 

You, unfortunately, seem to be unable to move on from MY PROFILE and how it “isn’t enough” to begin a conversation. Now that may well be true if you in yourself have nothing worth saying but I can safely say that the men (and on occasion) women I have conversed with on this and other sites have been perfectly able to strike up a conversation with me by providing a little info about themselves, telling me a joke, asking a question (akin to your last paragraph that I’m commenting on), or ANY other form of comment other than simply “hi” which lacks not only creativity but personalisation and could frankly be sent by any robot. 

It is NOT my responsibility to provide you with fodder to discuss with me from MY profile. 

IF you like my profile for whatever reason then you ought to have enough conversational skills to generate “something”, if not then there’s really little point in reaching out in the first place. 

I do sincerely hope this clarifies things for you about MY opinion and MY preferences. They may not be to your liking but as they are MINE it really is of little concern to you. And unless you have anything further to add in a respectful manner that will broaden my learning and understanding without harping back to what is or is not contained within my profile I really think it is about time you quieted down. 

Everyone else who will receive notification of this post, I’m sorry for the length of my reply and also the tone. Perhaps the rudeness was unwarranted but I got to the stage where I felt it needed to be said as the gentleman didn’t seem to be getting the point of this thread. 

[Se****]

4 hours ago, DuchessFeuille said:

Granted I’m approaching this from the viewpoint of a cis-het woman, so yes, of course it’s true that the dynamic does not always apply. No, I don’t think limits should be imposed at all, that’s the point - we should be able to govern our own behaviour. And if we’re not sure what’s acceptable, the forums on here are groaning with conversations like this one, there’s no excuse for not learning good conduct from others. Exactly re: quick message, “Loved your profile, would be great to chat later if you like” - intention clear, polite greeting. Pastry licked.

Love this. 

Perfect way to lick a pastry 😉 x

[Se****]

3 hours ago, Ceejayuk said:

There you go again. You are fixed upon the other persons profile. I have given you examples of what you can say to someone even with a blank profile, instead of just sending a simple "hi".
Again you can introduce yourself properly, you can list some of your interests, you can list some of your experiences, you can ask the other person about themselves, what are they into? What are they looking for. You know ask them about the info that is not listed.

At the end of the day you are completely free to do what you want. You just would not get a reply from people who are not wanting a simple "hi" message.

There are people with full profiles still getting simple "hi"messages from people so the point is still valid.

I should also point out I sent the op a message, strangely it was not a simple "hi"message and we are now friends and chat often.....so kind of point proven really.

Love you hunni bun 😝

[Mi****]

5 hours ago, DuchessFeuille said:

Granted I’m approaching this from the viewpoint of a cis-het woman, so yes, of course it’s true that the dynamic does not always apply. No, I don’t think limits should be imposed at all, that’s the point - we should be able to govern our own behaviour. And if we’re not sure what’s acceptable, the forums on here are groaning with conversations like this one, there’s no excuse for not learning good conduct from others. Exactly re: quick message, “Loved your profile, would be great to chat later if you like” - intention clear, polite greeting. Pastry licked.

Yeah it's what's hoped for (and why we should always lean more towards freedom over security on issues if we want to give the opportunity for humanity to better themselves through free will) but that's why we have laws in place, sadly we can't always trust people to respect each other, even in the most fundamental of ways. But I realise you are right in that limitation probably not working - There are resources in place on here but they often go ignored or openly challenged by the bitter and ignorant, so I think skills like conflict resolution and self directed learning should be taught at school age so people can actually respect and connect with each other, and be more inclined to properly research claims/find healthy advice from psychologists, marriage counselors and proper relationship coaches instead of falling for incel Youtubers and PUA's 😅

[Un****]

I don’t agree, your standard is your own, but I respectfully disagree. I don’t give out free validation to anyone in person so why would I do it on an app? In real life when I approach it’s always “Hello” and if I get a response I at least know that I have your attention, then I proceed to talk. What are you expecting? Someone to look through your photos to say “I like how those jeans in your 3rd photo makes your ass look.”? Now let’s be honest that’s not what you wanna hear. You expect someone to formulate an intricate greeting from photos with filters and bios some people don’t even read(I read them though)? Y’all expectations are too high. Idgaf how pretty, or gorgeous, or beautiful I believe you to be I will never tell you unless we establish a rapport. If you are not interested then there’s no reason for me to give you free validation. In other words, just assume I’m interested because you are what I am looking for nothing more, nothing less. Not because I say some witty banter, I could be just trying to coerce you into believing I like you because you read something I wrote. As you can see I can articulate my very well, but just because I open with “Hello” I’m immediately branded as boring, unintelligible or just a fisherman(throwing out bait to see who bites). Though that’s not exactly what you said but that’s what you meant. Isn’t that the epitome of judging a book by it’s cover? I don’t send a lot of messages, but when I do it’s “Hello”, because you are a complete stranger and I was taught to open with a greeting. It’s not enough that men have to tell you what you wanna hear, now we gotta type what you wanna read off the jump, first message. Smmfh

[Ceejayuk]

 

8 hours ago, Undafeeted said:

I don’t agree, your standard is your own, but I respectfully disagree. I don’t give out free validation to anyone in person so why would I do it on an app? In real life when I approach it’s always “Hello” and if I get a response I at least know that I have your attention, then I proceed to talk. What are you expecting? Someone to look through your photos to say “I like how those jeans in your 3rd photo makes your ass look.”? Now let’s be honest that’s not what you wanna hear. You expect someone to formulate an intricate greeting from photos with filters and bios some people don’t even read(I read them though)? Y’all expectations are too high. Idgaf how pretty, or gorgeous, or beautiful I believe you to be I will never tell you unless we establish a rapport. If you are not interested then there’s no reason for me to give you free validation. In other words, just assume I’m interested because you are what I am looking for nothing more, nothing less. Not because I say some witty banter, I could be just trying to coerce you into believing I like you because you read something I wrote. As you can see I can articulate my very well, but just because I open with “Hello” I’m immediately branded as boring, unintelligible or just a fisherman(throwing out bait to see who bites). Though that’s not exactly what you said but that’s what you meant. Isn’t that the epitome of judging a book by it’s cover? I don’t send a lot of messages, but when I do it’s “Hello”, because you are a complete stranger and I was taught to open with a greeting. It’s not enough that men have to tell you what you wanna hear, now we gotta type what you wanna read off the jump, first message. Smmfh

Its like people do not read posts. I already gave examples of what you can write, even if the persons profile is blank, the point is you can send more than just  a "hi" or a "Hello", you do not need to go massively in depth, they just want it to look like your actually interested in getting to know them as a person and not just randomly spamming people.

The op is simply posting their opinion. no one is demanding you do it, they are simply saying that they personally do not like getting a simple "hi" as is feels impersonal to them and that essentially they are simply being spammed as it were.

What are they expecting? Again that has been answered if you read the replies. 

I really do not see why some people are making a big deal of this, its simple, all the op and people that agree with her have stated is their opinions. You are totally free to just send your simple "hi"messages as much as you want, just do not expect to get a reply from those who are looking for more than that.

For example even if their profile is blank, you can easily send more than a 2 word message.

"Hello, I am Ceejay, I just came across your profile and noticed we are in the same area, so I just wanted to send a friendly hello message. The way I see it is you cannot have too many friends

I am not sure what you are looking for as your profile is not currently filled out, however as I have been part of the scene for quite sometime, 20 years off and on, if you have any questions I will be glad to try and answer them as best as I can.

I hope this message finds you in good health and that you find what you are looking for on this site.

Kind regards.

Ceejay."

Amazing I wrote that without looking at anyones profile and its not just a 2 character"Hi" or a 5 character "Hello" message....I must be gifted..........:p

Seriously though how hard is something like that to send? I mean really?
 

[Ad****]

I dont know if anybody has mentioned this yet, but you can change your chat settings to only accept messages over a cercertain length... like 8 characters. Kinda solves the problem of getting "hi" or "hello" for the recipient. And also solves the problem of the sender never knowing why their "hello" didn't get answered, because they never sent it. I thought, I suspect that some people are perfectly happy getting a short message from some one they find particularly attractive, and they wouldn't want to miss that opportunity.