Slave vs Submissive

[ey****]

30 minutes ago, jzarvey said:

So newbies should just take your word for it?
How did you learn?
Shouldn't you share your source material with those seeking knowledge so they can read it for themselves?

So I looked up the book you suggested and it's wildly criticised for being outdated - and this in itself is a kinda thing of how things change over the years.

Books in general around kink; a lot often boils down to perception or ideology rather than considering how broad things are and how unhealthy a lot of narrow attitudes are.

I've met a lot of people over a lot of time in a lot of places and a lot of terminology used can vary on their perceptions and how they came through kink.

I have met subs who do not use safewords, who are exclusively dedicated and have an ownership relationship with their own - who use 'submissive' - because for whatever reason they don't see it as slavery, since they are there of free will

I have met those who call themselves slaves, who are not exclusive, but will serve and play with multiple people but call themselves slaves because whoever they are with they see it that they enter with free will, but lose it for the time they are there.

There are a lot of interesting blogs on this on the wider web - and I would actually suggest people take view points from more than one source - I really like the blog from Kate Kinsey on this subject.

 

[Deleted Member]

Here's my take on the slave submissive thing. Yes, it may be "outdated" as someone pointed out, but because something is old doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

There are two types, D-types and s-types. (I know, I know, there is a 3rd, but we'll get to that in a minute.) Dominant-TYPES and submissive-TYPES. The third is the switch who switches between the two types.

Under those types, we have ROLES. Such as Owner/pet, Master/slave, Dominant/submissive. There are a whole lot more roles that I'm not going to list for the sake of saving space. Unfortunately, one of the set of roles has the same name as our 2 types. Yes a slave is a submissive type, but the roles are very different.

Here is a good example of the difference between the submissive role and the slave role.

When I play in Dominant role I ask my submissive how she wishes to address me and how she wants to be addressed by me.

When I play in the Master role I tell my slave how to address me and how I will address her.

The differences are subtle, but very important to those who identify in those roles.

[Quikin]

I think it comes down to if it’s TPE, slave/kajira. A submissive doesn’t give up total control.

[DD****]

@wolfe1204

[Deleted Member]

2 hours ago, Quikin said:

I think it comes down to if it’s TPE, slave/kajira. A submissive doesn’t give up total control.

Sometimes they do. The roles are general, in my opinion. Each couple's dynamic will be different, but they usually fall into one of the roles. I think it is important to have the general roles to avoid situations where a Dominant is playing with a slave. Both sides of the slash will be disappointed in the scene because neither is getting what they expected, especially if thorough negotiations aren't done.
I've seen this happen and it isn't good for either side of the slash.

[Quikin]

But In the case of a slave:kajira, it’s a TotalPowerExchange. The roles are pretty well defined going in. Also I’m talking 24/7/365 dynamics, not just planning a night of it at a dungeon.

[Na****]

Yesterday at 12:37 AM, Daddy-n-Paddy said:

I disagree with the slave is from a position of weakness..a slave is just as strong as a sub, if not even stronger because they have chosen to give full control someone 100% control of their life. The idea that a slave is any weaker than a sub disrespects the slave.

I also think that was really judgmental. They’ve CHOSEN that life and that, to me, shows strength. It takes a lot to be at the will of someone else.

[ey****]

(as a general rule) there is a lot of strength in submission

whether that is one night in a dungeon, TPE, 24/7, whether you are someone's sub or slave - or whatever your dynamic is.

(which as a spin off - is why lowly/weak/pathetic/desperate subs rarely get anywhere)

it takes too strength to give control to someone.  to trust them with your safety.

 

[Quikin]

A slave demonstrates far more commitment to her role. Than a submissive.
Personally , I value that, it shows me she is strong,dedicated, and has the utmost faith in her Master.
And that “must” be respected.

[Quikin]

Another thing is the type of M/s dynamic you seek get into. Some are far more rigid than others.
I’m lean heavily to gorean, which is very strict and can be demanding, then you have high protocol, and now from what I’ve seen medium protocol. Which does allow slaves to negotiate limits, safe words, and duties.

[Da****]

Yesterday at 05:31 AM, Jeannot said:

THIS SITE IS FULL OF NEWBIES AND AMATEURS. YOU GUYS SHOULD LEARN MORE ABOUT BDSM AND THINK TWICE BEFORE SPEAKING.

How about youvtake a few minutes and maybe teach them something other than how to exclude people and give them a rash of Sh1t for asking questions...

[Da****]

Yesterday at 05:44 AM, Deleted profile said:

I have no problem with newbies, or anyone for that matter, asking questions. It is how people learn. But, part of learning is figuring out how to find information and evaluate the sources of the information.
If you're not willing to put in that effort, you could be putting yourself or someone else in danger of being harmed permanently.

Agreed

[Deleted Member]

Tuesday at 12:21 PM, OldWolf91 said:

So there are two sides of the slash… left is where things like Dominant, Master, Owner, Daddy, Mommy, etc. live. Right side is where you are asking about, though so let’s explore a bit.

First off… there are a lot of definitions out there, and a lot of words. You asked about slave vs. submissive, but there are also:
Bottom
Submissive
Slave
Property
Little (girl/boy)
Pet

So for most BDSM definitions I have seen, there is a bit of a spectrum of duration between those first three….

This is about the Power Exchange really… someone on the right side of the slash willingly cedes some level of Power over themselves to someone on the left side of the slash. Let’s look at the three most common scenarios:

1. Bottom. This is a very short, very discrete duration. You’re at a play party, you find someone you want to do a scene with. Whether that scene is impact play, rope, needles, fire cupping, whatever…. You negotiate the scene with them. Let’s assume it’s an impact scene. You go through their toys with them, agree on which ones you like, where you are comfortable with them touching you, what aftercare you need, what aftercare THEY expect, safe words, whatever. You go play, have a great scene. During the scene, from the negotiations through the aftercare, you are their bottom. Nobody else should interfere with you… and let’s say, for example, you agree they can spank and grope your a**. Next week, you see them at a munch, or even at the play space. They do NOT have a right to come up and grope your a** just because they did for this. That PE was for the scene alone. Once the scene is over, the exchange of power is also.

2. Submissive. A lot longer term. Can be for a week, a month, a year, or indefinitely (or anywhere in between!). You sit down and decide what your hard and soft limits are, appropriate rules, punishments, safe words, protocols, and duration. Let’s say you decide on a 6 month “contract” (even if it’s all verbal). 6 months later, you sit down, renegotiate, and continue another 6 months. During that year, you agree to be their submissive in some regard. It may be bedroom only. It may be just on weekends. It may be just when you’re together. Perhaps you need help staying focused with school or work, or staying on top of your diet and exercise, and agree to let them set rules and punishments. Whatever works for YOU. But outside of those limits… you are still your own person. And even within your limits, you reserve the right to say “no” via a safe word. In short.. there are limits still.

3. Slave. This is what’s often referred to as a “Total Power Exchange. Here… you no longer have safe words (though I always would suggest them for play scenes just to make sure you don’t get HARMED. Just because you trust them, they can’t feel what you do. If you’re suspended and your hands go numb, they only know if you tell them. Don’t be stupid of course… but this is an example). You don’t have limits, or very very few.. THEY get to decide those for the most part. This requires an EXTREME amount of trust. In both directions. The Master/Owner must know their slave VERY well for this to be successful at this level of PE…

But no matter how much power you cede to another human being… know this: you ALWAYS reserve the right to just walk away. Remove your collar, and end the dynamic. Consent RULES in kink. Whether you subscribe to SSC, or RACK, consent matters. Greatly. Any left side type that suggests otherwise is a MAJOR red flag.

This isn’t definitive. I can think of at least 1 valid example that defies what I put here. But in non-Leather BDSM, this is what I generally see as the accepted meanings of the distinction.

That was really helpful thank you! I now know I'm definitely know that I'm not a slave but would be quite happy as a Submissive. And yes, I agree; consent rules, and always goes both ways as well.

[Mz****]

All submissive individuals are subs. How they enjoy showing their submissions is how they identify. A slave can be many things ex: sex slave, service slave etc. Subs can enjoy all types of submission and identify in many categories that overlap. Example my submissive side can be a mix of a soft sexy kitten, a brat and a slut. I don't identify with any slave or little tendencies. Labels can be obstructions when learning what you like don't take them so liberal. Find a partner where both your kinks align or compliment one another and enjoy.

[Deleted Member]

Wednesday at 10:12 PM, Quikin said:

A slave demonstrates far more commitment to her role. Than a submissive.
Personally , I value that, it shows me she is strong,dedicated, and has the utmost faith in her Master.
And that “must” be respected.

I don't quite agree with that. Why is
being a submissive any less of a commitment?

[An****]

8 minutes ago, primalkinkybrt09 said:

I don't quite agree with that. Why is
being a submissive any less of a commitment?

If it's a kink it's not a 'commitment' in my opinion. Just a lifestyle. 

 

On 8/17/2022 at 4:12 PM, Quikin said:

A slave demonstrates far more commitment to her role. Than a submissive.
Personally , I value that, it shows me she is strong,dedicated, and has the utmost faith in her Master.
And that “must” be respected.

I agree that faith must be respected. That usually has nothing to do with the kink though. It has to do with the person in question. If you are insecure, you will not have a successful relationship no matter the role. Doms included. As for the commitment to the role statement, believe you are both correct. there are two definitions of commitment. One being <transfer something to> and <consign (someone) officially to> the other being <be in a long-term emotional relationship with> and <be dedicated to (something)> just being nosey sorry :P

[An****]

On 8/18/2022 at 7:45 PM, MzzK said:

All submissive individuals are subs. How they enjoy showing their submissions is how they identify. 

100% you can be a sub and not a slave but all slaves are subs.

[Quikin]

Submissive’s don’t give up complete control to there Sir. I’m not not saying they aren’t committed to there role, they are they just don’t submit as much as a kajira.

[Da****]

3 hours ago, Quikin said:

Submissive’s don’t give up complete control to there Sir. I’m not not saying they aren’t committed to there role, they are they just don’t submit as much as a kajira.

If I am understanding your position correctly, you are saying a kajira submits more to their Master, than a sub submits to their Dom.. am I reading that right?

[Quikin]

Yes, A submissive doesn’t give up total control to her/his Dom/me, it’s a partial exchange of power that the submissive is consenting too. In a “gorean dynamic the kajira/kajirus will relinquish a total power exchange.
Now “high protocol”is another Master/slave lifestyle where the slave does have the ability to to negotiate certain aspects of her/his duties before being collared.

[ey****]

though - stuff like Gorean is simply another idea or structure and not an only way.

 

[Quikin]

I never said it was the only way, and most of modern bdsm , such as we have now including high protocol come from gorean. Not the other way around.

[Quikin]

Stuff like gorean is the grandfather of what we call “bdsm” today. It’s not just another idea, and it’s not the only way.
But I think we got off topic of the discussion..

[sw****]

I think that a slave doesn't have a choice, however that is set up within the relationship as it is negotiated - the slave agrees to obey without question all the time whereas the sub has to agree to each scene.  There needs to be a lot of trust there in order for this to work for both parties.

I've been struggling with this question as it applies to me.  I've been blogging on another site as a new sub and finding in my explorations with a Dom that I may have more of a slave mentality.  I need to obey and love feeling owned, and I accept his corrections with a pleasurable feeling in my stomach even outside of sex, for instance.  I have a deep need to kneel for him and please him without thought for my pleasure. 

I am also a leader in my professional life, an avid hiker, a bit of a tomboy at times, a very sexual person (this was a surprise), and I'm finding that I like a bit of ***, which will be explored more very soon.  To me a sub and a slave are just different, one is not a better submissive than the other.  My Dom friend and I are not serious as neither one of us wants that, but when I'm ready to find someone, it would take someone who values all parts of me and wants me to continue to be a whole person for my mental and physical health for me to embrace being a slave, which would of course not happen right away.  To give up my limits would mean that I would have to be comfortable with his limits, and have complete trust in him, which takes time to build.

I'm finding that the beauty of BDSM is that we can all  find our own unique way.  Yes, there are guidelines but like the Pirate's Code, we can flex things a little lol. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by sweet_librarian

[Quikin]

Nicely said sweet.