Regarding consent

September 6, 2023

For the past 30ish years, I’ve believed that consent is given and/or accepted. Recently I came across an idea that completely blew my mind and changed the way I view the idea of consent. I heard three words that I can’t get out of my head.
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Consent is created.
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Powerful statement this. Is it still given and accepted? Yes, for sure. But those three words put such an emphasis on negotiation that it’s nigh impossible to not achieve something close to the wanted end result.
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I’ve always felt that soft limits were more interesting than hard ones. With this idea the conversation surrounding soft yeses and no’s becomes even more interesting.
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I don’t have questions regarding this other than what are your thoughts on it? Does it change the way you view the idea of consent or do you think it’s a dangerous concept that walks too fine of a line? As an open and admitted manipulator I think it plays squarely with what I would let a potential know upfront anyways.
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Chew on it and lemme know!✌️❤️
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👑

September 6, 2023

I have to say that this has just blown My mind on consent...
As a Dominant Nature, I find C.N.C extremely fascinating in itself, BUT if you put this into the equation it could be as dangerous as a walk around the edge of the consent...
Is this a formation for a Dominant to work on a "Potentials" softer psyche and mould it into what the Dominant wants NO MATTER what the limit?
The Dominant would just be able to create a walkaround for the limits. Wow... This is going to be sprinting around My mind now with every Consent-driven Scenario...
Just WOW...

September 6, 2023

I think consent is a very complicated matter and you have to think very, very carefully about what you are doing, how you are doing it, and why you are doing it.

September 6, 2023

41 minutes ago, Woody3180 said:

I have to say that this has just blown My mind on consent...
As a Dominant Nature, I find C.N.C extremely fascinating in itself, BUT if you put this into the equation it could be as dangerous as a walk around the edge of the consent...
Is this a formation for a Dominant to work on a "Potentials" softer psyche and mould it into what the Dominant wants NO MATTER what the limit?
The Dominant would just be able to create a walkaround for the limits. Wow... This is going to be sprinting around My mind now with every Consent-driven Scenario...
Just WOW...
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You’re welcome.

September 6, 2023

I don’t care for this. I want an enthusiastic and undeniable yes. All suspense and lead up to an act can contribute to receiving it, but if the moment arrives where someone says there is something they don’t want to do, I stop. I don’t attempt to convince them. I may even lose interest entirely. But that’s it, I’m done. They’ve showed their capacity and I need someone with more. An abrupt and perhaps cold goodbye, and that’s it. The end. I’m not going to compromise or coerce.

September 6, 2023

I'll be honest and sat I'm not sure why you see it as a game changer - if consent is still given, accepted and negotiated i.e. created - what's different about how consent has always been?
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To use the example given of soft limits - you still discuss them, consent to push them is both given and accepted with agreement as to how far, so what's different?
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Maybe I'm missing a point, but I really don't see the difference, consent is consent and should be sacrosanct regardless.

September 6, 2023

As a dom I only play as consent it give when entering the door. If I want to slide 4 fingers in at any moment, then that’s what will happen. Trust is a powerful tool

September 6, 2023

1 hour ago, phantum said:

You’re welcome.

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You have Bamboozled Me on this one Phantum...
It will keep Me going for a good few days working out how seriously Dangerous if put into the mind of the wrong kind of Dominant, they will use this Power for Bad NOT Good...
But is it possible to use it for Good..?
See Bamboozled.
A real Brain Melter My friend. 👍

September 6, 2023

By the time consent is brought up, drudged through and agreed on there's not a wet p or hard c in the building. So so many sexual topics to be had even if nothing physical is gunna happen yet people want to stay with a yawn fest 🥱 . The entire human race managed to reproduce for a time span hard to comprehend all without anyone ever outright saying " yes I want you to have intercourse with me ". Honestly the more time goes on and I get older the more bored and angry I become with the sex community, as a switch female these things only restrict me more and spoken consent has never given any kind of sexual pleasure/ peace of mind/ comfort/ or stimulation so personally it has no place in my bedroom. Let me propose an uncommon/ triggering idea....... our bodies are not ours. Almost every single part of the sexual reproductive organs are designed to accommodate and pleasure the opposing gender. Not self pleasure especially when combined with how damaging things have been shown to be like masterbating too often or porn or toys. So if everything about my p is designed to pleasure someone else I find attractive then why would they need 'my consent'? I don't believe a single woman who says she gets soaked being asked for consent every 5 mins, and iv never met a guy who loves talking more than doing. To me the topic of consent is a ploy aimed to attack masculinity / domination, a silly tactic that's effective in shifting power at any second. If a dom has to be given consent/permission to do something then they no longer are dominating. If a submissive is giving instruction (you can do this but not this) they are not being submissive. Enjoy your boiled *** folkes ! I'll be here for the next one rolling my eyes hard 🤪

September 6, 2023

29 minutes ago, leanneandmartin said:

By the time consent is brought up, drudged through and agreed on there's not a wet p or hard c in the building. So so many sexual topics to be had even if nothing physical is gunna happen yet people want to stay with a yawn fest 🥱 . The entire human race managed to reproduce for a time span hard to comprehend all without anyone ever outright saying " yes I want you to have intercourse with me ". Honestly the more time goes on and I get older the more bored and angry I become with the sex community, as a switch female these things only restrict me more and spoken consent has never given any kind of sexual pleasure/ peace of mind/ comfort/ or stimulation so personally it has no place in my bedroom. Let me propose an uncommon/ triggering idea....... our bodies are not ours. Almost every single part of the sexual reproductive organs are designed to accommodate and pleasure the opposing gender. Not self pleasure especially when combined with how damaging things have been shown to be like masterbating too often or porn or toys. So if everything about my p is designed to pleasure someone else I find attractive then why would they need 'my consent'? I don't believe a single woman who says she gets soaked being asked for consent every 5 mins, and iv never met a guy who loves talking more than doing. To me the topic of consent is a ploy aimed to attack masculinity / domination, a silly tactic that's effective in shifting power at any second. If a dom has to be given consent/permission to do something then they no longer are dominating. If a submissive is giving instruction (you can do this but not this) they are not being submissive. Enjoy your boiled *** folkes ! I'll be here for the next one rolling my eyes hard 🤪
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So here you are again being controversial and inflammatory for the sake of being controversial and inflammatory.
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I just hope to god no-one oversteps your boundaries or assumes consent when it is not there.
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Consent is a key point of law for a reason you know.
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The way you ***t it you're assuming a long drawn out conversation happens before each and every act amongst those you seek to denigrate - that's not the case at all and it's entirely possible to have a conversation around limits, boundaries and consent without it being long and drawn out.
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If you choose to ignore consent with those you interact with then that's your choice, but at the same time you have to be prepared for the potential risks and consequences.
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Everyone, you included, has limits and boundaries and going beyond them breaches consent plain and simple.
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The way you put it, you're sending an incredibly dangerous message to those ***rs and predators that *are* out there.
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No *** has been boiled in the making of this post, just lots of common sense used.

September 6, 2023

To be honest, I’m not sure why this is a shocking revelation? Surely practicing Dominants should be aware that parts of their craft can change the thoughts and behaviours of their subs? This is training and conditioning 101.

I’ve had long discussions with other kinksters about this topic and sometimes worry about how little people think about what they are doing. In my opinion, Instrumental and operant conditioning are very powerful tools with the ability to manipulate the very structure of the brain (and thus how and what you think and want) and should be understood explicitly by both parties before engaging in them.

Given enough time, a less than beneficent Dominant may use these tools to shape how a sub thinks about their limits and can reroute the motivation and reward psychological constructs to pass through their own will in ways such that the sub can no longer truly decide what is beneficial for them and them alone. Or put another way, the sub’s thoughts when judging whether they consent to something can be altered to match the desires of the Dominant in ways that go beyond normal personal growth and evolution. And it will seem to the sub that these ideas are their own. This is particularly suspect when conditioning is done subconsciously, in my opinion.

The only way I’ve truly seen to address this issue, if you care about such things, is to note how the conditioning is affecting the submissive. Is it designed to and has the effect of increasing the submissive’s sense of mastery of themselves? Does it increase confidence, assertiveness, and curiosity? Is your sub asking more or less questions? Do they think seriously about their own wants and needs? Is your submissive more or less bold in their desire to live the life they want to live? Are you freeing them or holding their spirit in bondage?

Anyways, just some food for thought.

September 6, 2023

An interesting thing consent. Apparently only Doms must accept it. I’d love to hear how subs would use this.

September 6, 2023

Just and edit for my post above* should be classical and operant conditioning. Apologies it’s 5am 😆

September 6, 2023

5 hours ago, leanneandmartin said:

By the time consent is brought up, drudged through and agreed on there's not a wet p or hard c in the building. So so many sexual topics to be had even if nothing physical is gunna happen yet people want to stay with a yawn fest 🥱 . The entire human race managed to reproduce for a time span hard to comprehend all without anyone ever outright saying " yes I want you to have intercourse with me ". Honestly the more time goes on and I get older the more bored and angry I become with the sex community, as a switch female these things only restrict me more and spoken consent has never given any kind of sexual pleasure/ peace of mind/ comfort/ or stimulation so personally it has no place in my bedroom. Let me propose an uncommon/ triggering idea....... our bodies are not ours. Almost every single part of the sexual reproductive organs are designed to accommodate and pleasure the opposing gender. Not self pleasure especially when combined with how damaging things have been shown to be like masterbating too often or porn or toys. So if everything about my p is designed to pleasure someone else I find attractive then why would they need 'my consent'? I don't believe a single woman who says she gets soaked being asked for consent every 5 mins, and iv never met a guy who loves talking more than doing. To me the topic of consent is a ploy aimed to attack masculinity / domination, a silly tactic that's effective in shifting power at any second. If a dom has to be given consent/permission to do something then they no longer are dominating. If a submissive is giving instruction (you can do this but not this) they are not being submissive. Enjoy your boiled *** folkes ! I'll be here for the next one rolling my eyes hard 🤪
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By all means roll your eyes, and you are well entitled to not want consent in your relationships. CNC is therefore implicit for you (so in that sense you have already consented). As mentioned by others consent doesn’t have to be long/drawn out/ brought up every 5 seconds. I have never found it to diminish my masculinity or Dominance either. In fact I generally don’t feel the need to “prove” either of those.

Not everyone is the same. Some find edgeplay with potential threat exciting, others need to feel safe before they are able to let go.

All of that said there are some potentially very serious issues which need to be considered.

As a Dom I know full well that if I do not have consent then I am at risk legally. I have to trust that my partner will not decide that things were a consent *** and go to police etc. even later on. This can and does happen. There have been cases of sub drop and/or remorse, or where in the moment the sun felt unable/scared to say no even when things went too far for them. Now I do enjoy edgeplay, CNC and the extremes, but I do so with the full knowledge of the potential risks. And those risks aren’t negligible, I know of people whose lives have been significantly impacted by the fallout, their lives, livelihoods, social standing etc.

As a sub if these are not discussed then you leave yourself open to harm. As mentioned everyone has limits. FGM, MGM, ***s, permanent marks, branding, scarification, needles, permanent harm, snuff, etc are all fantasies people have (there’s enough porn out there for all of these). Do you consent to these? Now you may be happy just focusing on positives and getting to know the person so you can trust them. But while these are extreme examples the may well be other not so extreme limits that can also impact play. Even some words can completely throw someone out of mood, or play upon personal traumas etc. I personally would rather know what to avoid prior to play than have it come up during and have everything g completely stop.

And this goes further. I personally know several people that have been the victims of sexual ***. And the fact that the body reacts to something they VERY DEFINITELY did not want has caused significant long lasting mental trauma in some. The fact the body reacts isn’t consent.

As I say consent doesn’t have to be tiresome, dredged over endlessly, or constantly brought up. I personally have never found it to be any sort of hindrance (even for the extremes of things I enjoy). And complete free use CNC is fine (and a lot of fun) for those who want it, but being aware of and accepting the risks is important. If you do not know what you are consenting to the fallout for all involved can be potentially disastrous.

September 6, 2023

49 minutes ago, phantum said:

An interesting thing consent. Apparently only Doms must accept it. I’d love to hear how subs would use this.
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Personally consent works in both directions for me - and should do regardless of which side of the slash you sit - consent given to the submissive may not result in any "action" on their part, but is still needed for play to happen, just as much as the other way round.
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Dominants have limits and boundaries, just as submissives do, and sitting alongside those is consent.

September 6, 2023

Lemme be absolutely clear about this. Nothing—nothing—in the OP hinted at non-consent. Also, and I said this before, why is it that Doms are commenting almost solely on what they expect subs to consent to? Don’t Doms also consent? This is what is meant by created.
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Consent seems to be viewed as a one way street where the Dom lays out what’s what and accepts what the sub says. But just as important is what the sub wants and wouldn’t the Dom have to give consent?
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Created.
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The same person that I got this gem from also said, paraphrased, don’t be so safe that you’re bored. When I wrap my sub I make damn sure I’m not tight around nerves. But I may, for a sense of excitement or dirtiness, cross the lines instead of laying them flat. Some would say that doing so creates a less comfortable feeling, yes, yes it does, and that’s the point. There’s a difference between less comfort and discomfort. Walking that line is the excitement in play.
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As me and my sub sit here talking about this, we’ve noticed that creating consent is something we’ve always done. There are times when you hear someone say something about, or put a label, or words to something you already do and it gives a breather insight yo yourself. This is what it did for me.

September 6, 2023

2 hours ago, WyldKatt said:

To be honest, I’m not sure why this is a shocking revelation? Surely practicing Dominants should be aware that parts of their craft can change the thoughts and behaviours of their subs? This is training and conditioning 101.

I’ve had long discussions with other kinksters about this topic and sometimes worry about how little people think about what they are doing. In my opinion, Instrumental and operant conditioning are very powerful tools with the ability to manipulate the very structure of the brain (and thus how and what you think and want) and should be understood explicitly by both parties before engaging in them.

Given enough time, a less than beneficent Dominant may use these tools to shape how a sub thinks about their limits and can reroute the motivation and reward psychological constructs to pass through their own will in ways such that the sub can no longer truly decide what is beneficial for them and them alone. Or put another way, the sub’s thoughts when judging whether they consent to something can be altered to match the desires of the Dominant in ways that go beyond normal personal growth and evolution. And it will seem to the sub that these ideas are their own. This is particularly suspect when conditioning is done subconsciously, in my opinion.

The only way I’ve truly seen to address this issue, if you care about such things, is to note how the conditioning is affecting the submissive. Is it designed to and has the effect of increasing the submissive’s sense of mastery of themselves? Does it increase confidence, assertiveness, and curiosity? Is your sub asking more or less questions? Do they think seriously about their own wants and needs? Is your submissive more or less bold in their desire to live the life they want to live? Are you freeing them or holding their spirit in bondage?

Anyways, just some food for thought.
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Firstly, everything you explained about being in less beneficent hands, is exactly what I do. I mold to my desires.
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Two, I’m not certain you could ethically use either classical or operative conditioning for negotiation purposes. I mean, you could, but consent is needed to use those tools. Now, I usually lead with “is it manipulation if I tell you that I’m doing it?” which creates the cycle of what exactly is being consented to and who’s idea was it to begin with. But in a vacuum, to use classical or operative conditioning tools without explaining them would probably be viewed as unethical.
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The idea of a reward and punishment system during negotiation sorta negates the idea of negotiation.

September 6, 2023

If you dive into social media you will find the hot topic of consent. “Consent must be given. ALWAYS.” This is what green kinksters hear from all comers of the lifestyle. The key word that we need to pick apart here is “given”. I’m not “giving” my consent to some stranger on the street. The way I play treads on dangerous waters. My consent is CREATED and built. I have to trust you. I have to make stable pillars to hang from and that takes time, education, effort, patience, and perseverance. My consent has to be MOLDED. What I consent to with one partner won’t be the same as a different partner because we haven’t CREATED the same consensual environment together.

September 6, 2023

1 hour ago, Valkyrie_Wings said:

If you dive into social media you will find the hot topic of consent. “Consent must be given. ALWAYS.” This is what green kinksters hear from all comers of the lifestyle. The key word that we need to pick apart here is “given”. I’m not “giving” my consent to some stranger on the street. The way I play treads on dangerous waters. My consent is CREATED and built. I have to trust you. I have to make stable pillars to hang from and that takes time, education, effort, patience, and perseverance. My consent has to be MOLDED. What I consent to with one partner won’t be the same as a different partner because we haven’t CREATED the same consensual environment together.
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Said better than I did.

September 6, 2023

There's two ways to consider this phrasing -
A) by displaying integrity/honesty/trustworthiness etc etc etc it's more likely than not, that one person will consent to another's wishes/thoughts/wants
B) creating (or manufacturing) consent also feels like it's bordering on coercive control and not therefore true consent
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We can dress it up, use words/phrases such as enthusiastic etc etc to help us understand what consent means so that we can be sure that we have it but, at the end of the day, when we're talking about consenting to sexual relations specifically, the law is clear with regards to what constitutes consent. It may not be as thorough as I (and maybe some others) would like but it's there in the legislation so that we don't need to tie ourselves in knots over it.

September 7, 2023

I agree with the concept of concent being created. Technically, any of us has already done this in our kinky journeys. As we grow and experiment, horizons broaden. What we may not have consented to a few years ago is most certainly not the same as what we would consent to today. Especially kinesthetic learners, like myself, who don't know unless they actually try it. Some things have to be built towards, otherwise if what is perceived by most as "kinky" is actually more vanilla to some that have repeatedly done the same thing without an expanding ambition for more. It makes perfect sense, but never looked at it that way, nice thread phantum! 👍

September 7, 2023

Thing is, that what is _created_, can without further explanation be created by anyone, for anyone. Even under pressure.
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That what is given, comes from only one, is there to begin with and is received by another. If I give you something, I don't have that thing anymore. I can create something new in it's blueprint/image, but that new "copy" is it's own entity.

September 9, 2023

Yes, but there is also CNC.....

September 10, 2023

Consensual is literally the first letter of CNC. It must be discussed and documented before hand that consent was given.

September 10, 2023

Thursday at 05:58 AM, Travibara said:

I agree with the concept of concent being created. Technically, any of us has already done this in our kinky journeys. As we grow and experiment, horizons broaden. What we may not have consented to a few years ago is most certainly not the same as what we would consent to today. Especially kinesthetic learners, like myself, who don't know unless they actually try it. Some things have to be built towards, otherwise if what is perceived by most as "kinky" is actually more vanilla to some that have repeatedly done the same thing without an expanding ambition for more. It makes perfect sense, but never looked at it that way, nice thread phantum! 👍
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‘Preciate it!