Th**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 4 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said: consent can be revoked at any time and this isn't moving a goal post. But there's nothing that suggests she was open to more than she said she was anyway. It's also not very clear what negotiations took place up front or if they did at all. I'm not going to assume either way without more information, plus it appears that English isn't the op's first language so I'd leave room for less clarity over that too.
Th**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 4 hours ago, orange837 said: I think it depends on weather or not your charging for your service or doing it purely for enjoyment of the give and take of obedience and control/trust. 🤷🏼♂️ if your a mistress that performs as a means of financial means, then pee on him. At the end of the day the customer is always right even when there wrong. Did you file a 1099 last tax season? No, absolutely not, pros can and do have terms and limits just like anyone else. Again, this is where clear and thorough negotiations come in. You don't go to a pro who doesn't offer x and demand it, just like you don't go to an Italian restaurant and demand ramen, just because they also serve noodles.
Th**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 2 hours ago, A_fella said: I don’t think it matters what role either of you take. If you were my mistress and you tried to push a limit that I repeatedly said no to, I would feel just as disrespected and probably try and end things as we just wouldn’t fit each other. Yes, except it's not a matter of "not a good fit" it's disrespect, boundary crossing and potential content ***. 2 hours ago, A_fella said: Adapting to another’s kinks is a choice and once that I wish people recognize and understood Again, yes, but there are also degrees. It often happens where someone who labels themselves as a submissive has expectations of getting service top behavior out of a Dominant, it's especially common in F/m interactions.
Re**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 You need to have the conversation outside of an actual session. Communicate that it is not something that you are interested in and it is a boundary. It is a limit. If they as a person, not as a submissive can not respect the boundaries you set for yourself then it is a discussion to be had that perhaps you are not the mistress for them. Regardless of how enjoyable the rest of the “play” is. You do not need to bend your level of comfort, and they do not need to put a ceiling on the exploration of their sexuality. Sometimes its just not a perfect pairing. Like cheeses and wine donnau. It is all about respecting one another and fulfilling what it is you are both searching for.
Scottishdombull Posted July 27 Posted July 27 51 minutes ago, ThaliaV said: Wants and expectations can change, the key is actual communication and renegotiation needs to actually happen along with it. I agree desires and expectations can change over time and renegotiations could take place. However in this instance Donna black and white stated in profile bodily fluids is a hard no no. Excluding *** there are three possible types that the sub is demanding to which I am reading is not a negotiation.
P_**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 A hard limit is a hard limit, no negotiations needed. If he doesn't respect that he needs to find someone else who will fulfill his desires. Wish him well and cut him loose. For example I don't like age play so if someone came to me saying that's what they wanted I'd say no and that would be the end of it. I'm not gonna kink shame you but if our needs are misaligned it isn't going to happen 🤷🏻♀️
Re**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 I think that is the key PC. And I think it is mispoken as negotiations rather than the conversation of dissolution. Precisely that as well, there is no shame but “it’s not for me” keeps both parties aligned in their journey.
P_**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 7 minutes ago, Remy83 said: I think that is the key PC. And I think it is mispoken as negotiations rather than the conversation of dissolution. Precisely that as well, there is no shame but “it’s not for me” keeps both parties aligned in their journey. I'm too old and busy for games with people trying to manipulate others and situations to get what they want so I just say no and that's that 😂 Like all the boys crawling into our inbox saying they could be the exception to our age range or the straight guys who suddenly claim to be bi... Gtfo haha. You can be respectful but some people just aren't, and I've no time for that.
Re**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 4 minutes ago, P_and_C said: I'm too old and busy for games with people trying to manipulate others and situations to get what they want so I just say no and that's that 😂 Like all the boys crawling into our inbox saying they could be the exception to our age range or the straight guys who suddenly claim to be bi... Gtfo haha. You can be respectful but some people just aren't, and I've no time for that. Facts! And the foundation is built on communication and respect. All we have to do is use those tools, and explore our desires.
ey**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 1 hour ago, ThaliaV said: It's also not very clear what negotiations took place up front or if they did at all. I'm not going to assume either way without more information, plus it appears that English isn't the op's first language so I'd leave room for less clarity over that too. yeah, there feels like context missing. But, I think - there's a lady who I play with now and then. Not as often as I think either of us might like, but we are opposite ends of the country and not the most accessible; we usually meet in London which is a 2 hour trip for her and 3-4 for me. And we have done some play involving her piss - but she's never actually pissed on me despite it being something we're both into. One time she was a no because she was on her period. Another time she had had an infection and was unwilling to risk my health (which was non negotiable - and understandable) and so on and so forth - but if at any time I'd have expressed anger or tried to nag her or anything because she said she would : we'd not still be friends. And it's not like we don't do other fun things together. (Aside from my wife, she was responsible for one of the best birthday treats I've had in my adult life) I think where I'm going with my round the houses story - is that even if something was preagreed (which I don't believe it was - as my guess) that folk can change their mind. And how the sub responds is on them, but getting pissy about it (if you mind my pun) isn't going to lead to what is wanted in the future.
ey**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 6 hours ago, orange837 said: think it depends on weather or not your charging for your service or doing it purely for enjoyment of the give and take of obedience and control/trust. 🤷🏼♂️ if your a mistress that performs as a means of financial means, then pee on him. At the end of the day the customer is always right even when there wrong. Did you file a 1099 last tax season? Even in a financial setting there is no obligation for the Dominant to do anything that goes against their own limits. There is also a plethora of reasons why someone couldn't, or wouldn't, piss on someone. But yeah - you wouldn't go into a restaurant and demand they cook you something that wasn't on the menu - they'd sharp tell you to leave. Oh, and she won't have filed a 1099 given she is not in the US - she is in the Netherlands, where sex work is regulated and taxed - so on assumption she is working as a pro, then yes she is paying tax and following laws and regulations (and regulations work both ways, that clients don't get to demand activities that are not on offer)
Re**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 15 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said: yeah, there feels like context missing. But, I think - there's a lady who I play with now and then. Not as often as I think either of us might like, but we are opposite ends of the country and not the most accessible; we usually meet in London which is a 2 hour trip for her and 3-4 for me. And we have done some play involving her piss - but she's never actually pissed on me despite it being something we're both into. One time she was a no because she was on her period. Another time she had had an infection and was unwilling to risk my health (which was non negotiable - and understandable) and so on and so forth - but if at any time I'd have expressed anger or tried to nag her or anything because she said she would : we'd not still be friends. And it's not like we don't do other fun things together. (Aside from my wife, she was responsible for one of the best birthday treats I've had in my adult life) I think where I'm going with my round the houses story - is that even if something was preagreed (which I don't believe it was - as my guess) that folk can change their mind. And how the sub responds is on them, but getting pissy about it (if you mind my pun) isn't going to lead to what is wanted in the future. Precisely what this lifestyle is all about. Exploring self and sexuality. The best people I have met are in the scene. However, curveball… want to re address the topic that “sub are not real sub”. They might not be without preface or context to the situation and thread. But, maybe they are and not the submissive for you. Just as you are in control donnau as is your submissive to determine if it is the right dynamic for them. It does not make them wrong, and you have put it as they might be a bit disrespectful towards you which is a whole other conversation. But, you still might want to show patience considering it is something they pursue that you are not willing to offer. I have parted ways with subs respectfully and remained friends afterwards because their path took them to something that I could not offer. I really do just strongly urge to separate the sex from the satiation and have that conversation. They may be one of your best friends through the rest of your lives based on your connection.
Ab**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 I wouldn't say they're not a real sub as much as they don't understand there must be a mutual respect between the Dom and Sub. If you don't agree on limits you can either negotiate or break the relationship. Being in a D/s relationship is about respect and intimacy for both partners, not just one. Reading this post I can see both sides of the argument and it sounds like it's best just to break the relationship off in my opinion.
ey**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 1 hour ago, Remy83 said: However, curveball… want to re address the topic that “sub are not real sub”. They might not be without preface or context to the situation and thread. But, maybe they are and not the submissive for you. Just as you are in control donnau as is your submissive to determine if it is the right dynamic for them. It does not make them wrong, and you have put it as they might be a bit disrespectful towards you which is a whole other conversation. Sure. So - personally 'real' is one of my hated terms (in a lot of contexts - anything like "a real sub would...", "a true Dominant would..." etcetera to infinity) cos as you say in a lot of cases it's just compatibility issues and that what one person thinks a submissive (or Dominant) should look like would differ to what someone else does - and it gets very much into what's known as "No True Scotsman Fallacy" This said. I can understand someone's frustration if they've dealt with someone who has effectively disrespected their limits/boundaries - if someone was telling a story about a Dominant who ignored their safewords a lot of replies would be "they were not a real Dominant" and while I still hate that term of phrase, it's still contextually understandable. My number one fetish is foot fetish and there are Dominants I have met where this is a limit - this means, of course, we can do casual play or other activities but this is important to me so we might not be able to forge a long term relationship. However, if I am pissy towards something who sets it as a limit - this is my unacceptable behaviour. It's not whether it's a question of whether a real, or good, sub would do it - it's not something a decent human would do.
Je**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 As a sub I would say that if they continue with the unacceptable behaviour then they aren’t interested in being your sub. That’s about as simple as it gets. Ofc I’m of the school of thought that the Domme gets what they want as they express it, if his behaviour isn’t addressed directly as unwelcome or inappropriate then it fosters the idea that it is allowed. Be straight with them, if he continues then he’s not a match for you
Th**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 4 hours ago, Scottishdombull said: I agree desires and expectations can change over time and renegotiations could take place. However in this instance Donna black and white stated in profile bodily fluids is a hard no no. Excluding *** there are three possible types that the sub is demanding to which I am reading is not a negotiation. She might have said it in her profile but it's not in the post, expecting people to go and read profiles to track down information for forum discussion is a bit much. Even if it is in a profile, not everyone meets here and things like limits should be explicitly discussed in the beginning in order to be absolutely sure, that way there can't be claims of "well I didn't know" or "you should have known". I'm not going to assume how things did or didn't happen without having the relevant information.
Th**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 55 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said: Sure. So - personally 'real' is one of my hated terms (in a lot of contexts - anything like "a real sub would...", "a true Dominant would..." etcetera to infinity) cos as you say in a lot of cases it's just compatibility issues and that what one person thinks a submissive (or Dominant) should look like would differ to what someone else does - and it gets very much into what's known as "No True Scotsman Fallacy" This said. I can understand someone's frustration if they've dealt with someone who has effectively disrespected their limits/boundaries - if someone was telling a story about a Dominant who ignored their safewords a lot of replies would be "they were not a real Dominant" and while I still hate that term of phrase, it's still contextually understandable. My number one fetish is foot fetish and there are Dominants I have met where this is a limit - this means, of course, we can do casual play or other activities but this is important to me so we might not be able to forge a long term relationship. However, if I am pissy towards something who sets it as a limit - this is my unacceptable behaviour. It's not whether it's a question of whether a real, or good, sub would do it - it's not something a decent human would do. Agree on the "real/fake" business it almost always gets a raised eyebrow from me. There are instances where I can see people saying that someone flat "isn't actually a...." with the number of people out there who don't quite grasp that D/s is power and control and not who's doing what to whom. There are a whole lot of bottoms and Dom bottoms out there chasing Dominant women and a lot of people calling themselves Doms who could very probably be very happy in a service top, service switch or versatile submissive dynamic. But that last bit is more than a lot of people are ready to talk about. 😏
Je**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 It’s surprising that people who are just starting in the scene don’t take the time to educate themselves about roles and what is typical or acceptable in dynamics before looking for one. It took me a year and a bit to truly grasp what the power exchange dynamic roles meant and what could make them better. Then it’s been reading and self reflection to understand myself before getting into a real D/s and as someone who’s been in three so far there is always more things to learn.
Th**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 2 minutes ago, Jecture said: It’s surprising that people who are just starting in the scene don’t take the time to educate themselves about roles and what is typical or acceptable in dynamics before looking for one. It took me a year and a bit to truly grasp what the power exchange dynamic roles meant and what could make them better. Then it’s been reading and self reflection to understand myself before getting into a real D/s and as someone who’s been in three so far there is always more things to learn. It is but I think a big part of it comes from a couple of things. There's a lot of misinformation out there (especially on mainstream media/ social media) and people start out misinformed thinking they know a thing or two as well as they just don't know what they don't know. My general observation of humanity is that it's not a common trait to start from a place of "I've never done this before so I should learn about it first" most people seem to think they can wing it or they somehow intuitively "just know". 🤷🏻♀️
Je**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 14 minutes ago, ThaliaV said: Agree on the "real/fake" business it almost always gets a raised eyebrow from me. There are instances where I can see people saying that someone flat "isn't actually a...." with the number of people out there who don't quite grasp that D/s is power and control and not who's doing what to whom. There are a whole lot of bottoms and Dom bottoms out there chasing Dominant women and a lot of people calling themselves Doms who could very probably be very happy in a service top, service switch or versatile submissive dynamic. But that last bit is more than a lot of people are ready to talk about. 😏 You’re right about not understanding, and for myself looking for a dominant woman who’s interested in exploring a relationship where they have a say in what’s going on rather then being told what their guy is going to be doing with them. Many want the idea of doing what they’re told…that’s not a Dominant person that’s a sub or sometimes a switch. The service tops are much of the time subs themselves. Fake or real putting *** where your mouth is can be scary but in the end will normally get a better result
ey**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 one often problem is men assuming what women want (or should be) there was a study, but while it did need a larger sample size - there were 6 categories where 75% of women responded as what they were looking for from subs : and these included - Domestic Servitude (92%!!!!) Personal Servitude, Control Finances and Final Authority Now control finances doesn't *necessarily* mean Findom, but it can be basically dictate who puts what into household expenses and what constitutes as a household expense. That if she is cutting back on (say) make up because they, as a couple, are skint - but he is not cutting back on (say) beer - then the man here is controlling the finances. And Final Authority is basically casting vote in any split decisions, if they're going out for a meal and she wants Italian and he wants Chinese then she gets the casting vote on whether to go for Italian, or switch to Chinese - these are just high level examples. Most form of actual kink play falls much further down the priority lists and as such these do tend to be very sub driven. Of course in any form of actual Final Authority scenario a Dominant who knows full well their submissive is into any activity can choose as and when to do it with them. It isn't less-Dominant to do something they know the sub will like. Agreeing to a subs requests is a form of final authority. It's a big issue that a lot of guys say they're into submission but only when it's submission on their terms which isn't really letting go. A Dominant should always be more than 'a say' in how things are ran.
ey**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 Some general tips for subs in some of these scenarios Always, always, read profiles if people you are speaking to regardless of context If you are discussing play with someone*, re-check their profile for their own likes and limits. If something isn't mentioned then ask about it up front. (*when I say this, this could be that you are booking with a pro somewhere, or have been chatting with someone to the point you're talking about meeting with a view to play - don't just approach strangers and say "your profile doesn't mention this activity - would you do it with me?!) If play is more spontantious, this could be because you've met someone in a club and are discussing play, or for example you are doing something like a brothel or window which allows walk-ups, to be clear what you're hoping to do up front. If what you are hoping to do is a no, don't argue it, either abort or discuss what else you would do.
Je**** Posted July 27 Posted July 27 8 minutes ago, eyemblacksheep said: one often problem is men assuming what women want (or should be) there was a study, but while it did need a larger sample size - there were 6 categories where 75% of women responded as what they were looking for from subs : and these included - Domestic Servitude (92%!!!!) Personal Servitude, Control Finances and Final Authority Now control finances doesn't *necessarily* mean Findom, but it can be basically dictate who puts what into household expenses and what constitutes as a household expense. That if she is cutting back on (say) make up because they, as a couple, are skint - but he is not cutting back on (say) beer - then the man here is controlling the finances. And Final Authority is basically casting vote in any split decisions, if they're going out for a meal and she wants Italian and he wants Chinese then she gets the casting vote on whether to go for Italian, or switch to Chinese - these are just high level examples. Most form of actual kink play falls much further down the priority lists and as such these do tend to be very sub driven. Of course in any form of actual Final Authority scenario a Dominant who knows full well their submissive is into any activity can choose as and when to do it with them. It isn't less-Dominant to do something they know the sub will like. Agreeing to a subs requests is a form of final authority. It's a big issue that a lot of guys say they're into submission but only when it's submission on their terms which isn't really letting go. A Dominant should always be more than 'a say' in how things are ran. I agree with this, and that’s why I mentioned self reflection and self awareness. I know myself and what I am looking for, and what I offer in terms of being submissive, not everyone does. When I give a person control, I give it fully, not just lip service. The lip service is based on sub-centric behaviour, where the sub pays a service top to dominate them for a time. The real subs normally are found in the more Dom-centric submissive roles where they know who’s in charge and do as they have agreed to do
Th**** Posted July 28 Posted July 28 1 hour ago, eyemblacksheep said: Some general tips for subs in some of these scenarios Always, always, read profiles if people you are speaking to regardless of context If you are discussing play with someone*, re-check their profile for their own likes and limits. If something isn't mentioned then ask about it up front. (*when I say this, this could be that you are booking with a pro somewhere, or have been chatting with someone to the point you're talking about meeting with a view to play - don't just approach strangers and say "your profile doesn't mention this activity - would you do it with me?!) If play is more spontantious, this could be because you've met someone in a club and are discussing play, or for example you are doing something like a brothel or window which allows walk-ups, to be clear what you're hoping to do up front. If what you are hoping to do is a no, don't argue it, either abort or discuss what else you would do. Everyone should read profiles thoroughly but beyond that it's best to still have explicit discussions, in addition to that to get confirmation.
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