No safeword!?!?

[Deleted Member]

I read something this morning which had me appalled. Doms saying they dont believe in safewords because they should push the limits. There is a huge difference between pushing peoples limits and forcing something upon them. It would be a different story if the sub said "i dont want a safeword" even then i would have a hard time working with them. We implement safewords for the safety of the sub. Out of respect for what we do to another person. You can do something 100 times and maybe that one time it may not feel right so you should be able to utilize or at least have tbe option of that safety net. People new to the lifestyle , you should always have the option of a safeword without feeling wrong about it. Do not play without it.

[Deleted Member]

Ahh the age old debate of safe-words and limits. I *** we’ll never reach a conclusion.

[ey****]

I think.... preference.

If you as a Dominant do not wish to play with safewords then this can be made clear - the sub should make an informed choice

if a sub doesn't wish to have a safeword, the Dominant can make an en***d choice

I think just because a conversation is going onto "let's play..."/"Let's have a relationship..." doesn't mean it has to continue when it becomes clear the terms don't work for the other person. 

But everyone should consider what they're getting into.

[BeardedSi]

For new people in the scene or even a new dynamic I completely agree that safe words are important but for a long standing dynamic to work to the point of no safe words is not a bad thing. It shows the level of trust on both parties. A D type should always be working on the principle of do no harm. Our submissive is the most important thing to us and as such we do not want to break them. Over time we learn to read their body language and understand when we are getting close to that point. We know what their likes and dislikes are. We want them to enjoy the experience, just as much as we do. It's easy for us to villainize those that do not have safe words because of the horror stories we hear of *** that has taken place in some situations. Though you have to remember that having a safe word does not guarantee your safety. It's why it is so important to Vet and build trust over time and not just jump into a dynamic or play situation. The phrase I coined for this is "slowly slowly kinky monkey"

It's very easy for people to get up in arms when they hear about dynamics that don't have safe words but maybe it's more important to understand how a dynamic builds up to that point and along side that discuss the times when safe words are called and just ignored.

[cautiousswitch]

I see two issues with this.

First is what is meant by pushing limits.  The term implies that a limit already exists.  Pushing the limit isn't just ignoring it; it's an agreement to check if the limit can be reset to something higher.  The limit is being crossed within a reasonable amount not suddenly doubled.  The top should be regularly checking with the bottom to make sure that the intensity isn't too great, so in a sense the safe word isn't necessary.  Unfortunately, this is not what everyone means when they say they like to push a sub's limits. I have met dom/mes who say they like to push a sub's limits and mean that they are going to do it without consulting the sub first.

The second issue is subs hiding behind safe words.  When we played tag we always had a safe spot, usually a tree that if someone was touching it they couldn't be made it.  If you have to tie your shoe, or catch your breath, or some minor emergency arose you could touch the safe spot and not interrupt the game for everyone else.  There were always those kids who never went further than three steps away from the safe spot and yelled insults at the person who was it.  Some subs do that with safety words and try to control the session by using them when they aren't in duress, which is what a safe word is really for. Even in an agreed upon no limits situation, there should still be a way for the sub to indicate extreme duress.  It doesn't have to be a clever word, a description of the problem should be enough.  "My arm just went numb." "I'm having trouble breathing."  "My vision just got blurry."  Or some previously agreed upon word that indicates that the sub's health may be in danger.  It's a consent vs informed consent situation; a sub agrees to an activity without thinking of how far it can go, the dom/me assumes from the subs enthusiasm that they have thought this through.  Rather than communicate properly before the session starts, the sub uses the safe word to hide their own ignorance.  It is understandable why some dom/mes may get annoyed by this and say no safe word.

[Broken_Halo]

My safe word has been in place for 5 years, exactly the same amount of time I have been with my Dom. I’ve never had to use it, but he rein***s the point that it exists - just so that I am reminded that this a symbiotic relationship but if I feel beyond my ability to cope , I still have control of my own safety.
Yes, I’m a sub but I’m a human being too and I deserve respect and care, being submissive doesn’t preclude me from receiving this. I also have a responsibility for self care and to alert my Dom to a potential problem.
@cynicalone thank you for caring for others and demonstrating your trustworthiness and gentlemanliness (Is that even a word!)

Bh

[Deleted Member]

Safewords aren’t the only way to manage boundaries though? I’ve used red/amber and rating from 1-10. Which gets around the “hiding” which cautiousswitch mentions.

[Leisa]

I have a safe word in place but have not and probably will not use it as it’s not needed. My well-being is checked in on frequently. A dynamic takes trust. Just because you have a safe word does not necessarily mean a Dominant is going to listen to it.

[Deleted Member]

37 minutes ago, Leisa said:

I have a safe word in place but have not and probably will not use it as it’s not needed. My well-being is checked in on frequently. A dynamic takes trust. Just because you have a safe word does not necessarily mean a Dominant is going to listen to it.

I agree but then at that point is that dominant a Dom or an ***r?

[Vandalslut]

7 hours ago, Cynicalone said:

There is a huge difference between pushing peoples limits and forcing something upon them....We implement safewords for the safety of the sub.

There is - a Grand Canyon's worth of difference. And in the litigious society we have become - and litigation is NOT confined to the 'vanilla' society - the safeword can also protect the Dominant.

 

6 hours ago, eyemblacksheep said:

I think.... preference.

Exactly. It's down to what works for those involved. It's no-one else's business. If no limits works - great. If limits and safewords work - great. Just get on with it, have fun and leave people who are not involved directly in your relationship/scene/dynamic ALONE. If their choices are not interfering with your freedom. life, then leave them ALONE. A recent post contained the remark that the poster felt that he did not have to accept anyone's triggers.  He wasn't being asked to accept anyone's triggers. How on earth  the triggers of other people were affecting this person, I have no idea.

 

6 hours ago, BeardedSi said:

It's easy for us to villainize those that do not have safe words because of the horror stories we hear of *** that has taken place in some situations....Though you have to remember that having a safe word does not guarantee your safety.

There's been a great deal of back and forth lately on this topic and largely, what we've seen is different choices being interpreted as villainisation, negativity,  implied criticism and the encroachment of the 'vanilla' world on the BDSM lifestyle, because not everyone desires a no-limits relationship. This is not the case; no matter what choices we make as individuals, those choices are generally made with reference to past experience and are made to enjoy an experience again, or to have a different experience or to have a more enjoyable experience.  Bad or destructive experiences can stay with us for a very long time - childhood trauma is one that is often found in the BDSM culture - and we all work through our individual traumas or overcome them in our own time, a process that most people would not be willing to rush simply because our choice of having a limit or safeword, at this particular time, has been interpreted as a personal attack on another's choice of lifestyle. True - a safe word does not guarantee safety - but it is something, it is a psychological comfort, and while a true and responsible Dom/me will be alert to responses, the Dom/me is also human and may miss something literally vital.

 

5 hours ago, cautiousswitch said:

Pushing the limit isn't just ignoring it; it's an agreement to check if the limit can be reset to something higher.  The limit is being crossed within a reasonable amount not suddenly doubled...I have met dom/mes who say they like to push a sub's limits and mean that they are going to do it without consulting the sub first.

Exactly. There are dom/mes who literally get off on 'testing' a sub's limit by 'doubling the stakes' without consultation. If there's an agreement on limits and the Dom/me breaks it - and breaks it consistently - then that Dom/me needs to build a 'no limits, no safewords' relationship and be upfront about it or be tagged as an ***r.  If they choose to play this ridiculous head-game, word would go around the sub community quite rapidly.

5 hours ago, cautiousswitch said:

The second issue is subs hiding behind safe words. Some subs do that with safety words and try to control the session by using them when they aren't in duress, which is what a safe word is really for. Even in an agreed upon no limits situation, there should still be a way for the sub to indicate extreme duress... It's a consent vs informed consent situation; a sub agrees to an activity without thinking of how far it can go, the dom/me assumes from the subs enthusiasm that they have thought this through. 

And equally, word would get around about a sub who consistently tried to control sessions.  I agree with @cautiousswitch - we are all different, we all express emotions and sensations differently and extreme duress/distress may not be immediately apparent to a Dom/me. Consent, informed consent, experience, known underlying health issues all need to be factored in to the 'to limit, or not to limit' debate.

 

5 hours ago, Broken_Halo said:

My safe word has been in place for 5 years, exactly the same amount of time I have been with my Dom. I’ve never had to use it, but he rein***s the point that it exists... @cynicalone thank you for caring for others and demonstrating your trustworthiness and gentlemanliness (Is that even a word!)

Thirty-seven years later, I've never had to use mine either but it's there. Yet with my  first Dominant I had to use it with tedious and monotonous regularity, to the point he became an ex-Dom. And this is where the individual preferences or needs come in - and before anyone starts, the Vandal's and my individual needs and preferences are based thusly: I've been through two bouts of breast cancer, the last one in 2017, requiring chemotherapy and radiation. The only surgery needed was some removal of lymph nodes, thankfully.  In the chemical cocktail, I was also given a wonder drug which had just recently been refined and perfected to its utmost - such an utmost that its creator received a Nobel Prize in 2016.  But it has one unfortunate side effect.  It screws up the patient's metabolism to the point where it doesn't function at all.  But no breast cancer patients who are given this drug are told that. I had to literally sit on my oncologist and demand to know what the f*** was going on.  So breast cancer patients then had more stress - epic stress - in trying to work out why we were gaining weight while living on an apple and a glass of water a day, putting ourselves through masochistic gym workouts and gaining 5 kilos a week. Now I know what the problem is, my GP is doing a fantastic job in managing it. But my body has changed forever, therefore my limits may alter.  This is something the Vandal and I are exploring together. I am aware  that my situation is singular - and EVERYONE'S situation is singular (I would hope not for the same reason.)

I think gentlemanliness is a word and if it isn't, it's a good word. And I'll add my thanks as well. A true Dom has many qualities, and gentlemanliness is one of them.

In conclusion, and yes, there is a conclusion, so let's put this to bed once and for all - if limits and safewords work, use them. Great. If you want a lifestyle with no limits and no safewords, then go for it, and have a wonderful time. But the recent relentless hectoring - that to choose a lifestyle or a long term relationship with limits and safewords is interpreted as 'vanilla' and/or lacking in trust is beginning to make my teeth hurt, dressed up though it is with a load of fancy declamatory verbiage. Everyone in this forum, other fora, in local scenes/cultures/clubs, kinksters the world over - we  know what we are, and who we are, or we're finding out and enjoying the journey in the way we choose to make it. To persist in the notion that we all have to conduct our relationships according to one definition is destructive, divisive and makes a complete nonsense of the oft-referred to freedom of choice in the endless delights of the fetish/ BDSM world. To help each other learn, to share knowledge, show tolerance and to live and let live is constructive.   So let's do that, shall we? I shall now get off the soapbox and proceed to the Domain (Sydney), carrying aforementioned soapbox, even though it is not Sunday and I may have to nick someone else's booked soapbox space.  Blessings to all and long may you kink and prosper to enjoy the choices you have made.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Vandalslut

[Cade]

4 hours ago, Cynicalone said:

I agree but then at that point is that dominant a Dom or an ***r?

As it's been pointed out many times in this discussion and many times on similar discussions, it depends on the dynamic and consented terms of the relationship. If the submissive understands and accepts that when they use their safeword, the dominant decides when to respond, then this is part of their relationship and NOT ***.

@Vandalslut THIS is what you have been dismissing, are oblivious of, or feel is acceptable: no matter how many times repeated that it depends on what is consented to, just because a buzzword phrase is used (in this case, no safewords), this individual refuses to see it as anything except ***, to the point of trying to prove that it IS *** to everyone.

You keep repeating "live and let live", but I do not think you know what that means. Use safewords! They may keep you safe and may help you explore your lifestyle. No one wants you to not use them!!! Some people choose not to; they are no less safe and no more abusive than your lifestyle. They shouldn't feel shamed for their lifestyle choice anymore than you deserve to be.

YES! Please live and let live.

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Cade

[Deleted Member]

@cade if the safeword was used and not followed then that is *** 100 percent. that safe word means stop so dynamic or not if it is put in place and utilized it still means stop.

 

[Cade]

3 minutes ago, Cynicalone said:

@cade if the safeword was used and not followed then that is *** 100 percent. that safe word means stop so dynamic or not if it is put in place and utilized it still means stop.

 

And if both parties consent that the safeword doesn't mean stop? Or, what if both parties consent there's just no safewords, so saying a safeword doesn't mean stop? There are relationship dynamics that don't use safewords, consensually. To me, your "*** 100 percent" just became 0% *** - as consent is one constant deciding factor of what is or is not ***. 

[ey****]

3 hours ago, Cynicalone said:

@cade if the safeword was used and not followed then that is *** 100 percent. that safe word means stop so dynamic or not if it is put in place and utilized it still means stop.

 

A film day I was at - the slave used the word 'mercy' so the Dominant stopped the scene.   Afterwards he said he'd hope she would have continued as if to be "mercy denied" 

So, he didn't want stop to be stop.

Context is very important - and this comes to communication.

 

[JavaDragon]

I would never ever ever feel comfortable playing with anyone without a safe word. It doesn't matter if we've been in a relationship or D/s dynamic for 20 years. It doesn't matter if my role is sub or Dom in that dynamic or scene, safe words are extremely important. Some of us are literally playing with fire - please don't be stupid. Frankly, not using safe words is such a giant red flag to me. I'm hesitant to even say it's okay if the sub is okay with it, because I know how some "Doms" can be so manipulative and sneaky. Idk man, not using safe words isn't something I can get behind no matter the reason.

[JavaDragon]

After reading some comments, let me also add: It doesn't have to be a word. It can be a phrase. A color. A hand signal. A number system. It doesn't matter. The sub (and Dom) has a right to end a scene if it makes them uncomfortable.

[Vandalslut]

 

Posted yesterday at 01:34 PM (edited)

  On 6/9/2020 at 9:10 AM, Cynicalone said:

I agree but then at that point is that dominant a Dom or an ***r?

As it's been pointed out many times in this discussion and many times on similar discussions, it depends on the dynamic and consented terms of the relationship. If the submissive understands and accepts that when they use their safeword, the dominant decides when to respond, then this is part of their relationship and NOT ***.

@Vandalslut THIS is what you have been dismissing, are oblivious of, or feel is acceptable: no matter how many times repeated that it depends on what is consented to, just because a buzzword phrase is used (in this case, no safewords), this individual refuses to see it as anything except ***, to the point of trying to prove that it IS *** to everyone.

You keep repeating "live and let live", but I do not think you know what that means. Use safewords! They may keep you safe and may help you explore your lifestyle. No one wants you to not use them!!! Some people choose not to; they are no less safe and no more abusive than your lifestyle. They shouldn't feel shamed for their lifestyle choice anymore than you deserve to be.

YES! Please live and let live.

Edited yesterday at 01:36 PM by Cade

@Cade Why the hell you have chosen to pick at me, I have no idea, other than the bizarre, unfounded and erroneous idea you have firmly wedged in your head that I reported you. I did not report you. The Vandal did not report you. There was no reason to report you.  There was nothing to report you for.  Have you got that, or do I need to say it another seven ways? If a complaint had been made, your post would have been removed, or the Moderators would have shut the thread down. Neither of these things happened. Where you got this paranoid 'reporting' idea from, I do not know or care.  Now, let's look at what you are busily dismissing. We don't care what you do. We never have. We never will. Live whatever way you like. Just stop trying to ram it down everyone's throats here, all this hysteric, relentless hectoring about you, yourself, your choices, the way you want to live your life and how you 'aren't allowed'.  And that is the first time I have ever heard the words 'I'm not allowed' from a Dominant. You are the one who is refusing to live and let live because you keep complaining that you 'aren't allowed'. If you 'aren't allowed' take it up with whoever it is that will not 'allow' you to live as you want. It isn't me.  You haven't stopped on this topic ever since a few members said, 'Yeah, well, this is what we do, and we're happy with it."  You are busy prating the need for acceptance, tolerance and acceptance and then announce what you will not accept or tolerate. The Vandal and I understand live and let live, because we live it; we have been marginalised, isolated, made to feel like freaks or weirdos, together and singly, in many ways. It's hurtful and unkind, therefore, we don't do it and we offer our 'live and let live' tenet to all who enter our lives, no matter how they enter it.  And do feel free to put our screen name into the search engine for the fora, see where we have commented, and you will find the same thing repeated - live and let live, unless the topic is clear and obvious ***. Now I don't think I can make it any clearer than this, so live how you want, get off my back and stop blaming me for something I haven't done.  

Edited June 10, 2020 by Vandalslut

[BeardedSi]

@Vandalslut can you please not refer to yourself in the third person.... it really doesn't help your waffling. I mean I can clearly see you have an issue with Cade. You go out of your way to have a pop at him and what he says.... such a live lived let live attitude that you have... or maybe not... but you preach that so well.... the hypocrisy is real in you. Maybe do yourself a favour and block Cade as anything he says seems to trigger you into a frenzy. Yet I thought you had no triggers..... hmm seems that you do and are not willing to own them.

[Wo****]

No safe word..... no play.

At least in the early days of a relationship for me.

I'm lucky (actually it's not luck, it's something I've done concsiously) that the people I play with there is no, or very little, need for a safe word but it's there.

If I met someone who didn't agree to the need, or use, of them I'd be asking a lot of questions.

I think I've used my safe word once.

I have one... I've not needed it.

 

[Th****]

On 6/9/2020 at 12:10 AM, Cynicalone said:

I agree but then at that point is that dominant a Dom or an ***r?

Hello Cynic,

I am the Dom / ***r you refer to in your comment. 

Let me try to explain a few of points.

1. I can only control my own thoughts, actions, and reactions. So if I agree a safe word with my submissive I absolutely cannot control if and when she uses it. That is and should be her choice for her reasons.

2. I do not know if you have had a submissive so deeply into subspace that they lose the power to vocalise. If you have not encountered this let me inform you that once a submissive enters a deep enough level of subspace they can lose the ability to speak or rather the hyper focus causes a disconnect between thinking those words and them actually coming out of their mouth. So you best stop before they need to safeword.

3. It is absolutely not a lack of a safeword that turns BDSM into ***. It is a lack of well informed ongoing consent that makes BDSM ***.

4. My limits are less than my Leisa's. That means that I will personally call off a scene because of my preferences before she does. So before you condemn not using a safeword when people have one, you may want to enquire as to state of their comparative limits.

5. Lastly, which scenario do you think is more (I will not use the word abusive as I know this is the preference of some and I respect there personal choice.) risky in your eyes. Crashing through your submissives limits on a regular basis to check she uses her safeword? Or actually playing within them so she does not need to use it? 

Beware labelling someone on a basis that is erroneous, for you may find it bites you in the ass.

Be Happy and good luck in your continued education.

[Leisa]

@Thebian thank you Admiral. I was going to respond to the comment but saw no need to correct one who claims to be a dominant. I’ve never worried as I know you will always take care of me. 

[Vandalslut]

12 hours ago, BeardedSi said:

@Vandalslut can you please not refer to yourself in the third person.... it really doesn't help your waffling. I mean I can clearly see you have an issue with Cade. You go out of your way to have a pop at him and what he says.... such a live lived let live attitude that you have... or maybe not... but you preach that so well.... the hypocrisy is real in you. Maybe do yourself a favour and block Cade as anything he says seems to trigger you into a frenzy. Yet I thought you had no triggers..... hmm seems that you do and are not willing to own them.

I do not and have not referred to myself in the third person. I/We are first person references. This is a couple's profile. Going back through our posting history,  I remarked on the 'Importance of Limits' thread that Cade was fortunate to have a no limits relationship and good for him. And you interpret that as going out my way to 'have a go at him'? That's 'having an issue'? Since that thread, where several members expressed the opinion that they were happy with limits and safe words, a repetitive frenzy of lengthy posts appeared, about restrictions, what's not allowed, why there needs to be no limits in the BDSM world, vanilla encroachment,  etc. by Cade.  The only comment I made on them was not addressed to Cade or to you. Cade wanted to keep pushing his way of doing things. So on a thread yesterday, a thread NOT by Cade and in response to other members, I answered them - rather like Cade has on some of his posts -  that some preferred one way and some preferred another and whatever worked for you, then great, since Cade was so determined to get everyone agreeing with him.  That's the entire history, right there. The next thing I know, Cade blasts out accusing me of reporting him, naming me a hypocrite and now I have a couple of  'experts' telling me all about myself. Experts I've never met and had sod-all to do with before today. And one of the experts says I 'waffle'. There's plenty in here that can make longer posts than I can. And tell me - do you sit still and smile nicely and take it when you're accused of something you haven't done?  Or do you defend yourself?  If you do sit still and smile nicely when someone accuses you of something you haven't done, that's your choice. I have no triggers in the BDSM world, which I believed that was what being referred to. So to make it clear for you and your friend - people who unjust accusations and people who whine that things aren't as they 'should be' in their world are, to me,  'issues'. You want to call them triggers? Whatever.  You are another one who needs to get his facts straight before launching accusations. And going by your response, you evidently didn't bother reading why the Vandal and I DO have a live and let belief.  If you have any sense of reality, you'll go back through the history I've just outlined above and face the facts.  

[Vandalslut]

Thanks, @Thebian.

[Leisa]

On 6/8/2020 at 5:10 PM, Cynicalone said:

I agree but then at that point is that dominant a Dom or an ***r?

I was not going to respond to this question but after careful thought, consideration, and reading comments have determined that since this comment was in response to my original comment it was only appropriate to respond. You seem to forget that every dynamic is completely different from any one else’s and to make a blanket statement without considering all the facts and consent of other people’s dynamics is irresponsible and ludicrous. 
Frankly, if you’re a good dominant then you are watching your submissive and her reactions to the play. If not you’d be irresponsible and the abusive dominant. To essentially call my Dominant abusive because I go into deep subspace and cannot articulate my safe word if I had to is irresponsible, disrespectful, and a disgusting assumption. 
my Dominant, much like any other responsible Dominate, checks in on their submissive throughout the play scene. The submissive and their well-being is essential to a real Dominant to ensure that no *** occurs because without the submissive there is no play.  Maybe next time before calling someone abusive for no safe words stop and think. Maybe you’re the one who’s abusive and you have written this post to validate your inability to read a submissive and their responses. Good luck to whomever you choose to be a submissive in the event that they may be ***d by you. 

[pocketcamera]

half the time on fetlife, "no safewords" means that they don't want to have to scream "pink polka dot unicorn" while ball gagged in order to get out of a suspension gone bad.

 

But overall, stop is an unused safeword. saying stop is the safeword you use,, gets you blocked very quickly in some circles